Sharpen & Nerd out on M4, bonded diamonds, spyderco PM2

Mo2

Mo2

Joined
Apr 8, 2016
Messages
6,630

So this is Michael Christy on Youtube. His channel is probably my favorite knife channels and this one is quite epic.

Titled: Knife Sharpening - CPM M4
This is a video documenting the sharpening of a knife in CPM M4. There’s discussion on the abrasives used and the steel.

The video... well, just watch it.
 
He's about the only person that actually documents how he sharpens. Always great stuff from him. I wish I had his steady hands. Doing handheld stone sharpening at precise angles is super challenging.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Mo2
halden.doerge said:
He's about the only person that actually documents how he sharpens. Always great stuff from him. I wish I had his steady hands. Doing handheld stone sharpening at precise angles is super challenging.
Click to expand...
Indeed wish more folks did this.
 
OK . . . the nube (meaning me) has to jump in here.
Being deliriously all about that knife and M4 as my favorite steel for hard work/best cutting of difficult abrasive materials I have a thing or two to say.

When I am not relaxing and using my Edge Pro . . . the way he is using the small stones hand held is what I do.
Precison ? Hmmmm with all the back and forth movement the stone is teetering and creating a convexed edge. Hmmmmm . . . not what I like but . . .

I would be more impressed with his edge angle holding abilities if he sharpened on the finer stones edge trailing. Less teetering / rounding and better more effective apex creation.

I agree with the Spyderco Ultra Fine being a stone just made for M4 or rather this is a super effective paring.

I stopped watching at the suggestion of stropping.
Why did I stop?
Well because I am asking myself why should I strop ?
My experience has been, and this is even with an edge that has had a week of intermittent careful but abrasive dirty work, that with a little preliminary work on other stones, on M4, I can get a tree topping edge off the Ultra Fine Spyderco.

Now why in the name of blithering bagger spit Bob would I spend any more time on a work knife ? Or any other knife ?

Bottom line : the right stones/edge trailing / careful precise strokes = elimination of stropping on soft materials.

OK I got it out . . . I guess I'm curious . . . I'll watch the rest of the vid.
 
Watched it.
I like the guy. First I have heard of him.
I'll look for his vids ! ! ! Thank You ! ! !

Now back to my previous ?rant? . . . oh I don't know. I'm just talking about my experiences and fascination with the process.
Five years ago there abouts I was getting edges such as he shows on basic old A2. I say A2 just because that was what most all the blades I was sharpening was made from.

Zero stropping.
however total reliance on a sharpening jig. I was using the edges so heavily I was sharpening a stack of blades EVERYDAY and some days the same blade stack more than once a day.
EVERY SINGLE EDGE was that sharp. I would test on a hair while it was still in my arm and I could shave little curls off the hair and not cut it off. Used a jewelers visor to see it.
I got to where I never tested. I just mindlessly went through the progression of stones with the angle set on the jig.

My whole point is :
I was taking like six passes per side TOTAL on each side PER STONE.
Nearly every pass was edge trailing unless I had a chipped edge I was grinding on a stone more coarse than normal.
Three or four stones. The last stone the bur would come off as little bits of hair like fragments (but finer) on the surface of the stone.
Final stone ? A crappy old basic Norton 8,0000 (actually I love that stone but it isn't like it is an OH MY GOD Shapton or anything right ?).

8,000 water stone, zero stropping, six strokes per side (the edge length was about 2 1/4 inches long).

Hair whittling OH YAH BABY.
AND all those edges are bordering on 50° inclusive (~40° to 54° see magic marker note on blade).
Here are photos from those good 'O days (good 'o days meaning when I finally stopped hand sharpening and woke up to jigs). I still fart around with hand held.
Edge Pro Apex does the same but maybe still not as precisely as the plane blade jig.

Dazzling.JPG IMG_0203.JPG IMG_0959_2.jpg
IMG_1102.jpg

Strops ? All that back and forth wasted motion on the stones !? Why ?
IMG_1627.jpg
 
Last edited:
Wowbagger Wowbagger can you post a link to this thread on his video on YouTube. He can only answer this question for you.
 
Wowbagger said:
Now why in the name of blithering bagger spit Bob would I spend any more time on a work knife ? Or any other knife ?

Bottom line : the right stones/edge trailing / careful precise strokes = elimination of stropping on soft materials.
Click to expand...

I agree with your basic point--why strop in the traditional sense if you can get that sharp right off your stones? Good work!

But: isn't "edge-trailing"--whether done on a hard strop with a high-grit compound, or on a high-grit stone with good technique--pretty much accomplishing exactly the same thing of refining your apex, and even in the same way?

I'm not debating that you SHOULD go strop, sounds like you're doing awesome with your current approach. But saying that when you do edge-trailing strokes on a stone, a person who 'strops' on a hard strop with compound is doing exactly the same thing. Functionally, you're both just refining your apex using the same technique, but different materials.
 
maximus83 said:
I agree with your basic point--why strop in the traditional sense if you can get that sharp right off your stones? Good work!

But: isn't "edge-trailing"--whether done on a hard strop with a high-grit compound, or on a high-grit stone with good technique--pretty much accomplishing exactly the same thing of refining your apex, and even in the same way?

I'm not debating that you SHOULD go strop, sounds like you're doing awesome with your current approach. But saying that when you do edge-trailing strokes on a stone, a person who 'strops' on a hard strop with compound is doing exactly the same thing. Functionally, you're both just refining your apex using the same technique, but different materials.
Click to expand...

Yes pretty much.
The down side is the goop on the strop tends to cling to the knife and I have to clean that off.
Then there is the process of applying the abrasive to the strop.
Until the word "spray" entered my limited realm of awareness I was COMPLETELY over strops. I mean back when I was stropping we had to some how get this solid block of grit impregnated hard wax like stuff onto the strop. My favorite strop abrasive was so hard you could break it up with a hammer like a brick. I have many others that are softer like wax. All best used on power buffers where the friction melts it though I bet my fave would just laugh at the buffer. Crazy stuff. Why in Bob's name they don't just put the dust in a bottle is beyond me. Then I could mix it with a little water or oil and rub it into the strop.

What ever.

So . . . to strop on a water stone and rinse it and the blade off under the water faucet is just so much more preferable than all the messing with said stroppy stuff. Spray ? Hmmm do I really want to atomize highly abrasive material and then inhale it while I am working ? I think . . . not.

And then if one is talking "feel" any stropping surface even balsa (and if you look at my last photo that is hard rock maple) is going to provide less angular feed back than a real stone.

I don't go so much by "feel" as by looking at the edge on the sharpening media and seeing when the dark line closes up which means the edge is right down on the stone.

Depending on the stone and the steel some times, viewed with my jeweler's visor, I watch for the slightest hint of a bur being formed and then flip the knife and go one stroke per side to get rid of it. Some times this means going edge leading ever so slightly and then edge trailing to finish the stroke. Some of the stainless steels need edge leading on ceramic for all of the final strokes to prevent a bur from forming.

Some times I still get a bur even edge leading. This means I need to switch stones often to my Norton 8,000 rather than the ceramic Ultra Fine.

Finally two other thoughts :
when he was "smoothing" the balsa surface and found it to work better. Consider that he may have actually imbedded some grit from the sand paper in the wood. The Correct way to smooth the wood is to CUT it with a blade. A hand plane.

And along those lines I have never liked that a strop surface is vulnerable to attracting and holding all manner of garbage that is not contributing to or even negatively effecting the sharpening process. Every thing from beard hairs, dust, ceiling tile junk that may drift down, old metal swarf and burs that have been cut off.
Nasty
Compare this to a 8,000 stone that has just been rinsed under a facet or better yet flattened on a diamond plate and rinsed under a faucet.

Going to take a lot of talking to get me to use a strop other than on an edge that has been apexed on a 400 grit stone and then immediately stropped on a fairly softish strop with diamond paste. But I don't do that you see. Even though that edge may be the best work knife there is it just isn't where I'm at right now. At least not for the majority of my knives. Maybe one.

I EVEN HATE FOOLING AROUND WITH DIAMOND PASTE ! ! !
it all sounds good but when I reach for one of my syringes the goop is solid as a crayon and i have to take a wire and put some oil in there and stir it around and do incantations and kill three legged chickens just to get it to flow down the spout of the syringe to "dress" a strop. By the time I need to do that again . . . guess what . . . the goop is solid and won't squirt again.

Fun, fun, fun, fun, fun . . .
 
Last edited:
Haha, ya gotta move it back and forth so it gets sharp before ya die of boredom. Jigs? Nah, too long to set up for a knife I fall asleep just talking about them let alone trying to dial one in to use.

The stroping enhances the edge. If it doesn't something is wrong.

I still have yet to see anyone get S110v as sharp as Micheal Christy.

M4 is no challenge, it wants to get sharp. S110v is unforgiving to angle inconsistencies for a treetoping polished edge (not a ragged toothy edge thats just catching and pulling hairs )

Also done freehand.

I have not seen anyone show this level of sharpeness with purely edge trailing strokes, freehand reprofiling a dead dull or damaged edge on high carbide volume steel, with no strops.
Not saying it's impossible but that it sounds like a waste of time. I'd rather put back a cold one.
But if ya make a video I'd watch ya while I sip on a brew.
Hey, Whatever works works

You still my guy wowbagger so don't think I'm picking on ya :D

Wowbagger said:
Watched it.
I like the guy. First I have heard of him.
I'll look for his vids ! ! ! Thank You ! ! !

Now back to my previous ?rant? . . . oh I don't know. I'm just talking about my experiences and fascination with the process.
Five years ago there abouts I was getting edges such as he shows on basic old A2. I say A2 just because that was what most all the blades I was sharpening was made from.

Zero stropping.
however total reliance on a sharpening jig. I was using the edges so heavily I was sharpening a stack of blades EVERYDAY and some days the same blade stack more than once a day.
EVERY SINGLE EDGE was that sharp. I would test on a hair while it was still in my arm and I could shave little curls off the hair and not cut it off. Used a jewelers visor to see it.
I got to where I never tested. I just mindlessly went through the progression of stones with the angle set on the jig.

My whole point is :
I was taking like six passes per side TOTAL on each side PER STONE.
Nearly every pass was edge trailing unless I had a chipped edge I was grinding on a stone more coarse than normal.
Three or four stones. The last stone the bur would come off as little bits of hair like fragments (but finer) on the surface of the stone.
Final stone ? A crappy old basic Norton 8,0000 (actually I love that stone but it isn't like it is an OH MY GOD Shapton or anything right ?).

8,000 water stone, zero stropping, six strokes per side (the edge length was about 2 1/4 inches long).

Hair whittling OH YAH BABY.
AND all those edges are bordering on 50° inclusive (~40° to 54° see magic marker note on blade).
Here are photos from those good 'O days (good 'o days meaning when I finally stopped hand sharpening and woke up to jigs). I still fart around with hand held.
Edge Pro Apex does the same but maybe still not as precisely as the plane blade jig.

View attachment 817207 View attachment 817208 View attachment 817209
View attachment 817210

Strops ? All that back and forth wasted motion on the stones !? Why ?
View attachment 817211
Click to expand...
 
Last edited:
He said it (stropping) brings the edge further (i.e. sharper) and the reason he brings edge that far is that the sharper it is, the further away from ‘dull’ state. I take this from memory, so it’s probable inaccurate.

In different way, Shawn also mentioned that he hasn’t seen anyone making S110V as sharp as Michael Christy.

I don’t strop much either but I haven’t been able to make my S110V as sharp as my (production) M4, ZDP, VG10, HAP40, Superblue, 8Cr13MoV, or even D2. So I was thinking probably his method really taking it further from ‘dull’.
 
Chris "Anagarika" said:
He said it (stropping) brings the edge further (i.e. sharper) and the reason he brings edge that far is that the sharper it is, the further away from ‘dull’ state. I take this from memory, so it’s probable inaccurate.

In different way, Shawn also mentioned that he hasn’t seen anyone making S110V as sharp as Michael Christy.

I don’t strop much either but I haven’t been able to make my S110V as sharp as my (production) M4, ZDP, VG10, HAP40, Superblue, 8Cr13MoV, or even D2. So I was thinking probably his method really taking it further from ‘dull’.
Click to expand...

OK, thanks.
Got it.
Or maybe it was the four shots of espresso that I just had.
The light at the end of the tunnel is starting to get bigger and brighter.
I don't hear a train coming but then the ringing in my ears is pretty loud.
:)

haven’t been able to make my S110V as sharp as my (production) M4, ZDP, VG10, HAP40, Superblue, 8Cr13MoV, or even D2.
Click to expand...

Have you tried sharpening your S110V on a good jig ?

The first S110V blade I ever got was a Manix. Out of the box it was wire edged and no where near shave sharp. I tried stropping it on an old strop I had with I think the hard cake yellow compound. Did nothing to improve it. No surprise there; needed to be diamond and fairly coarse for that.

I put it on the Edge Pro WITH THE WRONG STONES plain 'O Shapton Glass stones starting at 500 and going to a meer 4,000.
Results ?
Hair whittling just like all my other blades.
Long story short that particular blade sucked very badly and would not hold even a shave sharp edge.
Later did the same thing with diamonds including diamond paste (I have an Aligner with diamond stones) I hated to busss-it-out (I hate the aligner thou the stones I like and use free hand).
Hair whittling / edge would not last a day.

So yes I used the wrong stones and got "nearly as sharp" (not counting that elusiveness just "past" hair whittling). What ? How is that defined in the videos ? I need to watch more.

As I say in my moniker "Better is Better" . . . buuuuuuuuuuuuuut.
I have since purchased two more S110V knives, the Edge Pro with the Aligner stones double back taped to a blank aluminum plate gets those two knives hair whittling and the edges last upwards of two weeks of five day work weeks.

I don't even try to touch up the S110V with my Spyderco Ceramic UF I use the Aligner 8,000 stone.
The M4 cuts as well (even better) FOR ME and as long FOR ME as S110V and I prefer using the Spyderco triangle to using the aligner 8,000 for freehand touch ups to get from pretty much shave sharp back to hair whittling. So that's what I like and do.

As Shawn said :
S110v is unforgiving to angle inconsistencies for a treetoping polished edge (not a ragged toothy edge thats just catching and pulling hairs )
Click to expand...
Try the jig if you haven't.
 
. . . and Shawn,
All I got to say to you is :
Awww Bull Sheeeet !

Nah . . . there is a lot right with what you said.
However, old bean, I got you beat in number of posts . . . your minuscule 2708 to my 3,100 plus !
(and in half the time)
I guess I'm not spending too much time with my crazy assed methods.

Ha, ha, ha, ho, H0, HO, HO Merry Christmas !
 
Hahaha. Merry Xmas to you! :D

Wowbagger Wowbagger ,
No, I don’t have jig and acknowledge it may be the case. If I can’t make it with my free hand, then the steel isn’t for me. Probably will sell it later, though it cuts well as of now, just not shave capable. And yes, M4 does very well (GB1)
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top