Sharpening 1095

K

KrabbyKakes

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Jun 22, 2013
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I was sharpening my carbon steel Opinel last night when I noticed something interesting. It was getting very sharp very fast, cleanly cutting phone book paper after a course Arkansas stone. It was roughly shaving leg hair and printer paper was like air. I moved to a medium Spyderco (stone, not Sharpmaker) and after sharpening then, it was almost hair whittling. Couldn't get curls but it cleanly cut the free hanging hair in half. Next was a fine spyderco, and that is where things got interesting. The edge went from flying through phone book paper to hanging up multiple times on the blade, almost like there where chips on it. I went back to the medium stone and got the same edge as before. But again, the fine stone dulled the edge. I decided to strop after that and the edge got even worse. I went back to medium and then stropped again, and the strop dulled the edge again.

That wasn't the first time that has happened either. It happened on the Opinel, Case carbon, a carbon Schrade Sharpfinger, and my brothers Ka-Bar, all 1095. I have also noticed it, albeit less noticeable, on 1084 and 420HC. On all of my stainless though (440C, 154CM, AUS-8, and even China stainless), the edge gets noticeably sharper the higher the grit you go. I would say that high carbon steels do better at a lower grit (someone correct me if I am wrong)

So, long story short, keep carbon steel blades at a low to medium grit and get sharp knives. Go to high grit, and get low knives. I did sharpen all freehand, so someone with an Edge Pro might find something else true. I figure I would post this so someone wouldn't spend 2 hours polishing an edge by hand or with a system and figure out that they have a dull edge.

Sorry for the long read, but hopefully someone will find this useful.


- Kris
 
It is extremely important with 1095 to use barely any pressure when finish sharpening freehand. You probably just barely rotated the apex into the stone with a bit too much pressure (doesn't take much at all when all of it is concentrated on he very apex) and the result is instant chipping of the edge on a microscopic scale. The higher the hardness of the steel, the easier it is for this to happen. Stainless is much more forgiving as far as chipping goes than carbon steels.
 
Carbon chips more easily than stainless? I always thought that carbon steels were tougher than stainless. Most carbon steel blades seem to have a 55-59 RC hardness, while most stainless seems to have 59-61 RC. Even up to 65 RC with ZDP-189. I thought that higher hardness = more frequent chipping?
 
Yes, it chips easier at equal hardness. As with any other generality, there are other factors that'll affect the relationship between hardness and chipping, such as: specific alloy, acuteness of the bevel angle, etc. but for all else equal, yes, carbon steel chips easier than stainless.
 
Thanks for the info then! Now it makes since that hard use carbon steel knives are rather soft. And to answer the question in your first post, I make sure to use very light pressure. It is easy to tell on Spyderco ceramics because the stones will load up almost instantly if you use to much pressure.
 
eKretz said:
Yes, it chips easier at equal hardness. As with any other generality, there are other factors that'll affect the relationship between hardness and chipping, such as: specific alloy, acuteness of the bevel angle, etc. but for all else equal, yes, carbon steel chips easier than stainless.
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I haven't noticed this. In my experience, I find the opposite - my carbon steel tools are much more resistant to chipping at comparable RC than most common stainless, and in general they will take a very fine edge and hold it longer than they will with a coarse or toothy edge. This is at RC 58-60. As the RC goes lower, into the mid 50s is machete and hatchet territory - even more resistant to chipping.
 
Most often you won't see it below 60Rc. It is especially prevalent on older straight razors, which are often full hard. The stainless ones I've sharpened are much less prone to micro chips than the carbon steel ones. Ceramic sharpeners such as Spyderco's offerings seem to be especially easy to get the chipping with, especially on steels in the 60+Rc range.
 
eKretz said:
Most often you won't see it below 60Rc. It is especially prevalent on older straight razors, which are often full hard. The stainless ones I've sharpened are much less prone to micro chips than the carbon steel ones. Ceramic sharpeners such as Spyderco's offerings seem to be especially easy to get the chipping with, especially on steels in the 60+Rc range.
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Opinel does not harden their carbon steel to anywhere near that hard.

In the case of an Opinel, if you apply too much pressure during the sharpening process, you are more likely to bend the edge than chip it.

The XC90 alloy is not equivalent to 1095. It's closer to 1084.
http://www.steelstrip.co.uk/international_equivalents2.htm

I don't have any comment on using the super fine grits. I never use them. For what I do with a knife, a medium grit gives me better results no matter what the alloy. YMMV.
 
That may be so, but we won't know for sure what exactly happened to it if he can't post magnified pics of his edge. I have heard of quite a few people getting chipping on the ceramics though, even at hardnesses in the high 50's Rc. Regardless, it is certainly possible to sharpen carbon steels on high grit abrasives without getting a dull edge, as amply demonstrated by the masses who sharpen carbon steel straight razors to ungodly grit levels. I personally run a 2,000—8,000—12,000 progression on my carbon steel straight using Shapton stones and can definitely say the edge is sharp coming off the stones. It is imperative to use absolutely the lightest pressure possible to avoid chipping on a micro scale (visible only under a microscope).
 
Case CV isn't 1095 either.

My GEC whittler (1095) has seen its best edge off a translucent Ark, then stropped on chromium oxide. My Case Sodbuster seems happy with a fine ceramic and strop. My woodworking knives (1095 and 01) are some of my sharpest knives. Those only see wood (duh :D ) and the strop though.

I'd certainly try your method if I had the same equipment. Sounds like you've found a great set up.
 
knarfeng said:
Opinel does not harden their carbon steel to anywhere near that hard.

In the case of an Opinel, if you apply too much pressure during the sharpening process, you are more likely to bend the edge than chip it.

The XC90 alloy is not equivalent to 1095. It's closer to 1084.
http://www.steelstrip.co.uk/international_equivalents2.htm

I don't have any comment on using the super fine grits. I never use them. For what I do with a knife, a medium grit gives me better results no matter what the alloy. YMMV.
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This. ^^

As mentioned, the Opinel 'carbone' is not 1095, but XC90 (French origin), and it's not anywhere near hard enough to chip; mid-50s HRC likely. It WILL dent/ding/roll easily (I've done it to my own). Ceramic hones are notorious for creating big burrs, wire edges or otherwise rolling them, if pressure is just a little too hard (doesn't take much); more so with edge-leading strokes, which will focus pressure laterally into the apex. To take an Opinel 'carbone' blade to a higher polish, it's much easier to do it with edge-trailing strokes on high-grit sandpaper, a firm strop with polishing compound, or a sequence involving both. Either one isn't quite so hard as a ceramic, and will work a with more forgiveness of some pressure, especially when done with a trailing stroke. A hard black or translucent Arkansas stone should do well also. Light pressure rules, in all of these methods; the steel is very low-wear and relatively low RC, and polishes easily. These methods will also work better with Case's CV and 1095, BTW. Ceramics are better for refining and polishing higher-wear steels, in particular. Opinel's stainless blades (Sandvik 12c27Mod) will tolerate ceramics a little more, though I also prefer to use the above-mentioned tools & methods for it, instead.

My Carbone Opi and several of my Case CV blades are polished to 2000+ grit levels (edge-trailing on wet/dry paper + stropping with SiC and/or green compounds). They cut like lasers at these edge finishes, and are easily maintained on strops (mostly green on balsa and/or leather).


David
 
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I have had problems with micro-chipping of my MC blue steel (I believe) neck knife on the ceramics too! No such problems on any kind of waterstone though!
 
I think knarfeng hit it on the head about the edge rolling. I have found this true when using a leather strop on my carbone Opie. I now just run mine on the slotted wheel of my paper wheels and use light pressure and it returns it to razor sharp in no time without any grinding of the blade necessary. Another reason why my first thru tenth choice for an ECD is my #6 Opinel.

Blessings,

Omar
 
awestib said:
I have had problems with micro-chipping of my MC blue steel (I believe) neck knife on the ceramics too! No such problems on any kind of waterstone though!
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MC? Japanese Blue(2) is usually taken to a high harness on wood working knives. That can account for the chipping. Very different from the steels/ht that the op mentions.

Not sure about your knife though.
 
<drift>

HeavyHanded and David/OWE,

Just wanted to say, again, huge thank you for your encouragement on sticking with edge trailing techniques. It's beginning to improve. I do still rely on my modified Lansky to bail me out when I bung up the apex. The trick of the bent lansky rod really works well. But I'm getting closer to and closer to the apex free hand and the time spend on convexing the shoulder is making a noticeable difference in paper, wood, and kitchen.

Frank/Knarfang... still listening to you and others who advocate toothier finishes. A world of mystery that is....

In any event, thanks to each of you for your willing to share your lessons learned. This newbie sure appreciates it.

</drift>

back on topic...

A tale of 2 knives and very limited amount to add here...

Here is an old Schrade-Walden H-15 that I got used and abused and fixed up and modified to suit my own taste (drop point, now).

Schrade H-15 Modified by Pinnah, on Flickr

If you click on the picture and look very carefully at the edge at the belly of the curve, you might be able to pick out the last of the remaining chips/dings in the blade. It was in horrible shape when I got it with several chips and chunks out of it. The Schrade-Walden carbon is very hard stuff. It's hard on the stones and takes a lot longer to work. But, I can baton wood and still shave hair, a function of the both the toughness and hardness I suppose (even if they are in opposition to some extent). It also maintains an edge for a good long time.

Here is my Opinel #9 (notice the disappearing blade!!)

EDC Pair by Pinnah, on Flickr

As others have noted, it's no where near as hard but it's tougher. I was cutting some crap off of a pipe a while back (what did Loveless say about "casual contempt" of the tool?) and essentially banged and scraped metal pipe for a bit. Have done other similar stupid stuff with it. Dents, visibly folded edges but no chips. Not a one. It does require a lighter touch on honing and I don't use rods anymore.

Trade offs.
 
KrabbyKakes said:
I was sharpening my carbon steel Opinel last night when I noticed something interesting. It was getting very sharp very fast, cleanly cutting phone book paper after a course Arkansas stone. It was roughly shaving leg hair and printer paper was like air. I moved to a medium Spyderco (stone, not Sharpmaker) and after sharpening then, it was almost hair whittling. Couldn't get curls but it cleanly cut the free hanging hair in half. Next was a fine spyderco, and that is where things got interesting. The edge went from flying through phone book paper to hanging up multiple times on the blade, almost like there where chips on it. I went back to the medium stone and got the same edge as before. But again, the fine stone dulled the edge. I decided to strop after that and the edge got even worse. I went back to medium and then stropped again, and the strop dulled the edge again.

That wasn't the first time that has happened either. It happened on the Opinel, Case carbon, a carbon Schrade Sharpfinger, and my brothers Ka-Bar, all 1095. I have also noticed it, albeit less noticeable, on 1084 and 420HC. On all of my stainless though (440C, 154CM, AUS-8, and even China stainless), the edge gets noticeably sharper the higher the grit you go. I would say that high carbon steels do better at a lower grit (someone correct me if I am wrong)

So, long story short, keep carbon steel blades at a low to medium grit and get sharp knives. Go to high grit, and get low knives. I did sharpen all freehand, so someone with an Edge Pro might find something else true. I figure I would post this so someone wouldn't spend 2 hours polishing an edge by hand or with a system and figure out that they have a dull edge.

Sorry for the long read, but hopefully someone will find this useful.


- Kris
Click to expand...

That's weird. If a knife is going to chip out, it will do so before your final stone. Possibly a wire edge? A good loupe will help evaluate the apex after each stone. If it was fine for three stones and then dulled on the last stone, that's very weird.
 
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