Sharpening apparatus vs freehand with stones

N

nick060200

Joined
Jan 18, 2017
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I can get a blade sharp just free handing on a stone. I can easily get a blade to shave hair off my arm and cut phone book paper easily.
Achieving those things I would consider a blade sharp.

I have seen videos of guys able to cut a hair by just the weight of the hair itself. Also splitting hairs. Able to slice tissue paper. These are blades I would consider scary sharp.

I can't get a blade that sharp by freehand. My first question is: can anyone here get a blade that sharp free hand ? I'm assuming most if not all those knives are sharpened on a jig of some sort. Where the angle is constant with zero flaws.

The next question is how practical is a blade that sharp ? I can't see it being any more useful in day to day situations than what I can achieve freehand.

The last question and the one that might get me to invest in one of these jigs is : when a blade is that sharp will it hold that edge for any length of time after using the blade for normal tasks ? Or will that "scary" edge be gone after say a few slices thru cardboard?
 
There are a lot of folks that are what I call "sharp nuts". If you can freehand sharpen as you said, then that is plenty. If you knife will cut what you want it to cut, then you are doing find. I've freehanded for about 65 years and all my users cut cleanly, efficiently and hold their edge well. IMHO, that's all that is needed. Don't bother with a "sharpening system". If you can freehand sharpen well (which you posts indicates you can), then you will never be dependent on a "system".

Rich
 
I guess my last question also has a lot to do with steel type. But even with super steels will a blade that can split a hair even hold that edge after one run thru cardboard ?
 
I use free hand sharpening. IF I would be a guy who's making a living from sharpening tools, I would definitely buy a sharpening system.
 
In my experience, those OCD edges don't hold up, especially when cutting tough stuff. Kinda not worth the effort ... for me.

For EDC, as soon as it cleanly slices phonebook paper, done.

If you can get hair splitting edges freehand, that's more than good enough. No system needed.
 
Knife sharpening, to many people, is a hobby. Like all hobbies, they can be carried to extremes. Is it practical to have a perfect mirrored bevel and slice hairs into thin wafers? Probably not. Is it practical to have a twin jet powered remote control aircraft instead of a rubber band powered balsa wood model airplane? Probably not. Is it practical to spend $15,000 on a guitar when a $150 one will produce the same notes and play the same songs?

Personally, I live a very hectic life full of responsibilities and activities. Knife sharpening is my time to relax and decompress. As such, I enjoy doing it. The "edge pro" type system I use provides me more consistent results than freehand sharpening. This consistency (and the resulting mirror polish and sharpness) adds to my ejoyment. Because of this I invest in the high quality tools such as the Hapstone v6, Shapton glass stones, and all manner of strops and associated compounds.

Also, because this is a hobby I enjoy, and also because I only own a few knives, I have no idea what the edge holding properties are because my knives never get a chance to even get dull.
 
The only time I go for an extreme thin polished edge is on kitchen knives because then your using almost all push cutting into a nice soft board. For my everyday work knives I just hone them on a medium India or Washita stone and just go to a nice even toothy edge because they slice through tough stuff easier and last longer and can be touched up quickly. If you're cutting A LOT of cardboard and packing materials a cheap utility knife makes more sense unless you want to stop in the middle of a job and sharpen your knife. Plus if some clown borrows it and loses it or breaks it - you don't care.
 
What I have found going back and forth guided to freehand is the guide is mostly cosmetic - it makes a more uniform looking edge. It also helps to identify regions of the edge where I chronically make the edge thinner or more broad than other regions or otherwise develop more per pass variation - helpful for correcting freehand.

Overall I haven't seen any real difference in performance though. People may find the guide is faster, but most likely if they get good at freehand using a guide is going to feel pretty slow by comparison.

Getting the edge super polished and as accurate as possible helps with woodworking tools, but outside of that is not a huge help in other applications IMHO. For example I regularly run my camping hatchet to brighter finish than my belt or pocket knives. Is all application driven, pressure cutting vs draw cutting or combination of the two.

I always bring this up in discussion of guided units because it is an interesting factoid - CATRA makes powered grinding systems for commercial high-volume sharpeners that purposely apply a slight convex shape to the edge of a degree or two - a variation I believe closely mimics a better level of freehand variation. Their research shows this cuts with greater efficiency all else being equal.
 
Well you got lots of great info.
I can free hand to hair whittling. I can free hand faster to hair whittling if I use strop(s).
now
what a sharpening system does for me is I get more accurate angles / edge geometry right down near the edge.

FOR ME AND THE WAY I USE these edges for the most part that makes a difference.

If I create an edge freehand it takes more concentration and I tend to round the edge more (meaning steepen the edge geometry). This edge will whittle hair and pop hair off my arm and cut soft stuff like crazy.
but
cutting harder material the edge with a shallow / consistent bevel is noticeably better and I can feel the difference.

If you can achieve that free hand and or if you really like the edges you get then stick to free hand.

Me . . . I like brainless and better (=sharpening system)

A moniker from another thread I used to haunt :
Sharpening is FacetAting
Good enough is good enough
Better is Better.
 
Rich S said:
There are a lot of folks that are what I call "sharp nuts". If you can freehand sharpen as you said, then that is plenty. If you knife will cut what you want it to cut, then you are doing find. I've freehanded for about 65 years and all my users cut cleanly, efficiently and hold their edge well. IMHO, that's all that is needed. Don't bother with a "sharpening system". If you can freehand sharpen well (which you posts indicates you can), then you will never be dependent on a "system".

Rich
Click to expand...

:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:

What Rich said, plus a zillion!
 
I have freehanded for 40 some years and totally agree with Rich.
As far as extreme sharpness goes, I can get my convex knives more sharp than any other grind. Freehanding on stones and stropping after to remove the burr. I recently also learned that excessive stropping ( more than 40 passes or so) doesn't improve things a great deal. Forming a good edge fully apexing it to start with is more important .
My guided systems I have are the Sharpmaker and the Worksharp guided system ( still freehand in some respects) and they work well , but I mainly rely on sharpening freehand. There's just something about hands-on that has stuck with me over time.
 
Another benefit that hasn't been discussed is the sharpening systems allow you to change a edge. This is useful if you have a damaged tool, bought a cool old knife at the swap meet, or if the factory edge doesn't suit you. You can change the profile and the edge angle. I think this is something that attracted me to one. More so than just keeping my knives sharp. I don't know anyone that can sharpen diff angles freehand. They just kind of perfect a single do all angle.
 
nick060200 said:
I can get a blade sharp just free handing on a stone. I can easily get a blade to shave hair off my arm and cut phone book paper easily.
Achieving those things I would consider a blade sharp.

I have seen videos of guys able to cut a hair by just the weight of the hair itself. Also splitting hairs. Able to slice tissue paper. These are blades I would consider scary sharp.

I can't get a blade that sharp by freehand. My first question is: can anyone here get a blade that sharp free hand ? I'm assuming most if not all those knives are sharpened on a jig of some sort. Where the angle is constant with zero flaws.

The next question is how practical is a blade that sharp ? I can't see it being any more useful in day to day situations than what I can achieve freehand.

The last question and the one that might get me to invest in one of these jigs is : when a blade is that sharp will it hold that edge for any length of time after using the blade for normal tasks ? Or will that "scary" edge be gone after say a few slices thru cardboard?
Click to expand...

Hi,
lots of guys on this forum can get that sharp freehand,
how long that sharpness lasts depends on whats being cut exactly (ok and how.......details :D),
and cardboard can be especially harsh as it can be very dirty and full of sand/rocks,
so if you're using ~2inches of edge
and you're whittling hardwood you might be able to do up to a thousand slices
before the blade stops being able to shave your arm hair at all
if you're cutting cardboard that might happen in 1-10 meters
... before it stops being able to slice newspaper clean might be 250meters ...

the higher the initial sharpness the longer it lasts,
shaving sharpness disappears the quickest,
newspaper slicing sharpness disappears much slower,
printer paper slicing sharpness disappears even more slower,
even when it can barely slice printer paper it will still whittle wood
...
More on performance, consider that under 15 dps edge can chop bones And 12 dps edge can still shaves/whittles beard hair after 1000 slices of hardwood ( yes a 1000 slices of hardwood )
25dps dulls faster than 20dps even if those are microbevel angles
Extreme Regrind , ~6DPS no damage in 50 slices into pine, hardwood flooring and plywood
Edge Retention : Cardboard

somerandomind said:
Another benefit that hasn't been discussed is the sharpening systems allow you to change a edge. This is useful if you have a damaged tool, bought a cool old knife at the swap meet, or if the factory edge doesn't suit you. You can change the profile and the edge angle. I think this is something that attracted me to one. More so than just keeping my knives sharp. I don't know anyone that can sharpen diff angles freehand. They just kind of perfect a single do all angle.
Click to expand...
Hi,
;) thats both very true and very false at the same time :D
For sharpening you dont really need to know the number of the angle,
and each knife can have a different one,
all you do is try to balance the blade on the edge bevel,
if the edge bevel is wide enough and kinda flat-ish,
the blade will balance only at that angle, and you use that angle to sharpen,
it can be different from knife to knife, or from side to side of the same knife,
if you put your finger on the edge bevel and press it into the stone the blade will balance

the other way to find angle is to put blade on stone and while rubbing forward keep increasing angle until knife bites into the stone, then back down slightly sharpen at that angle,
no need to know what the number is, can be different from blade to blade or even side to side,
you just find it each time as required

once you learn those two tricks, then you've perfected the single do all angle :)

also, I lower edge angles (regrind) freehand all the time ... yes they look flatter/prettier when I rig up a jig, but its not absolutely necessary, ... I dont cut a lot of stuff so I grind I sharpen for fun :D
 
You can slice paper towels and tissue paper with a free handed edge if you leave them a little toothy. Use grit of 1k - 2k max (4K if apex angle is small). Go easy on the strop or skip stropping altogether if your deburring technique is decent.

One of the best free hand sharpening demo i have seen. Clean slicing paper towel with no stropping!
[video=youtube;60f7ab0yRPg]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=60f7ab0yRPg[/video]
 
I have freehand sharpened for several years an while I can get a very sharp edge I have found the Worksharp system to do a better job and much quicker. Being able to freehand sharpen is an important skill but a powered belt system is great!
 
I do not bother with polishing or cosmetics,sometimes I polish my knives once in a while if it has too many scratches,but mostly just use Norton silicon carbide stone (coarse and medium),or my dmt coarse sharpener.Also for touchups sometimes sharpmaker is ok,but find edges that I get on stones to cut better and hold edge longer.Sharpness is same,most times it whittles hair,on coarse finish ,as thats what I prefer.My polishing system is couple passes on white sharpmaker rods,if i need to push cut something.All in all,stones give me best edges.Over polished edges that I see on youtube,and people cutting paper are not my thing.So much equipment,and people sharpening a knife for an hour,to me just doesnt make sense.You can get same or better results on one stone ,just practicing more.A lot of people overcomplicate things regarding to sharpening,and a lot of youtubers are giving wrong advice (one so called expert strops knife for half an hour or whatever)...
 
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I've used a few jigs and systems over the years. They were great to teach me how to sharpen and get a very sharp edge. However, I do all my sharpening free hand on stones or if I am doing many knives I use a belt sander. I get a edge just as sharp as I could with the systems in much less time. They are just as good looking or even better looking in my opinion if I blend the edge bevel sholder into the blade grind. Witch brings me to the edge I much prefer a convex edge. Convexing edges is difficult to do well on jigs and systems. Getting that super sharp edge is fun to do and everyone should do it at least once, but that edge really doesn't last long. I still do it every now and then just because I'm a knife nut. My much prefered edge isn't real polished and slices and push cuts both well. hope that helps.
 
Belt sander is very useful,I put all my knives on beltsander,first thing when I buy them.Thining out the blade is important.After that I can sharpen normally,without any problems.Knives like Opinels and Victorinox knives come with good grind from factory,and just few swipes on stone is enough to get them hair whittling sharp.
 
I love my belt sander so much that I bought a better one after my Harbor Frait one died. Some people worry about them heating up the blade but I've found it not to be a problem at all. Little story. I felt more heat on a blade scrubbing back and forth quickly on a coarse hone one time than I ever had on my belt sanders.
 
Awesome response!!!! I do agree, I guess what I meant is ive had damged edges or gotten knives that where abused but where cool and if you don't have a good edge to lead off of its really hard to restore them. I've also had edges that I guess where to wide and it was hard to thin them back without much confidence lol
 
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