Help!!! I'm looking for some educated advice. Being new to higher grade production knives, I have aquired several Benchmade and SpyderCo knives recently. The first to need sharpening is my Benchmade Leopard Cub with ATS-34 blade. I have a GatCo sharpening system. I follow the factory edge, with meduim, then fine hones,and it seems that I can hone until blisters come and go, still NOT SHARP! What gives? When I say not sharp, I mean, the blade will get marginally sharp (barely shave) but not fine sharp. Help, what am I doing wrong, or, what can I do to get my knives hair poppin' sharp? Your help is greatly appreciated, thanks.
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Sharpening ATS-34 - Can it be done?
- Thread starter GC
- Start date
- Joined
- Oct 3, 1998
- Messages
- 94
More then likely , the preset angle of your
thing-a-ma-jig is too steep.Ats-34 will take an edge like you want but you will have to
remove a lot of material first.Buy yourself
one of the new Spyderco Sharpmakers and follow the directions.
thing-a-ma-jig is too steep.Ats-34 will take an edge like you want but you will have to
remove a lot of material first.Buy yourself
one of the new Spyderco Sharpmakers and follow the directions.
SD, The angle on the GatCo is variable, there are five different angles to choose from. I'm trying to follow the factory edge bevel. I never had problems sharpening my Buck's with whatever blade steel they use on 112's and Crosslocks. These knives will get very sharp, and I believe a knife should be scary sharp all the time. When I purchased the higher grade knives I actually looked forward to sharpening them, now, after honing until I've developed a case of tennis elbow, with mariginal results, I don't want to use them for fear of losing that razor edge. I would buy the SpyderCo sharpener if it is a marked improvement over what I'm currently using. If it works like I think it does however, the angle won't be as precise as a sharpener utilizing a clamp and jig type system. Still need help, c'mon guys, fess up, how do you get a knife hair poppin', fine sharp?
- Joined
- Aug 24, 1999
- Messages
- 434
Are you getting a burr all the way down the edge, then turning it over and getting a burr in the opposite direction all the way down the edge?
I know there are ways to get a good edge without ever making a burr, but this is at least a good way to be sure you're making the two bevels meet before polishing.
Can you tell in more detail what you do and what you experience along the way?
I know there are ways to get a good edge without ever making a burr, but this is at least a good way to be sure you're making the two bevels meet before polishing.
Can you tell in more detail what you do and what you experience along the way?
GC,
Well, you're not going to like my answer. I have Benchmades and Spyderco knives, as well as a few high-end customs. I use my knives so I have to sharpen them all of the time. I use a Browning Sharpening Steel or a flat ceramic stone. Just by going freehand, and focusing on keeping the angle at 25 degrees, I can get a wicked edge on a knife, no problem. I tend to go in circles rather than straight strokes. I then strop my knives using a bit of sharpener's rouge. Hair poppin' sharp. Well, that's not accurate really. More like the edge just stares at the hair on my arms and they run away. You don't really need guides, just practice. The Spyderco system is great.
Practice on your wife's kitchen knives until you get good, then tackle your own knives again.
Matt
Well, you're not going to like my answer. I have Benchmades and Spyderco knives, as well as a few high-end customs. I use my knives so I have to sharpen them all of the time. I use a Browning Sharpening Steel or a flat ceramic stone. Just by going freehand, and focusing on keeping the angle at 25 degrees, I can get a wicked edge on a knife, no problem. I tend to go in circles rather than straight strokes. I then strop my knives using a bit of sharpener's rouge. Hair poppin' sharp. Well, that's not accurate really. More like the edge just stares at the hair on my arms and they run away. You don't really need guides, just practice. The Spyderco system is great.
Practice on your wife's kitchen knives until you get good, then tackle your own knives again.
Matt
- Joined
- Oct 3, 1998
- Messages
- 94
I had a hellava time with my first ats-34
blade.It just did not respond to the same
methods I had always used with great success
on 440C and tool steels.Usually , when a
blade started to shave , I would go to the
leather strop and finish .The more you strop , the sharper it gets.Not so with ats-34.Make more then a few strokes on leather
and you will be where you started . I discovered that a hardwood dowel charged with white or chromium oxide compound works
better then leather .Also , a small 30 inch
belt sander with a worn 400 grit belt beats
the living daylights out of anything I have ever used.That and the dowel are all I use
now .
blade.It just did not respond to the same
methods I had always used with great success
on 440C and tool steels.Usually , when a
blade started to shave , I would go to the
leather strop and finish .The more you strop , the sharper it gets.Not so with ats-34.Make more then a few strokes on leather
and you will be where you started . I discovered that a hardwood dowel charged with white or chromium oxide compound works
better then leather .Also , a small 30 inch
belt sander with a worn 400 grit belt beats
the living daylights out of anything I have ever used.That and the dowel are all I use
now .
- Joined
- May 26, 1999
- Messages
- 1,964
The edges on Benchmades tend to be a bit thick. You may want to cut down the angle and reform the bevel. I had the same problem with an Ascent; just couldn't get it really sharp. Eventually, I followed the advice of Joe Talmadge and thinned the bevel, then went with a steeper degree to finish. You might want to take a look at the sharpening FAQs.
Cliff Stamp
BANNED
- Joined
- Oct 5, 1998
- Messages
- 17,562
If I had to bet I would say you are honing with the stones for a preset number of strokes or for a particular time, probably based on experience with soft less wear resistant steels.
At blade of ATS-34 at 61 RC will take a bit of time to get sharp if it is really blunt unless you are using a really large fast cutting stone (8" DMT). The clamp and rig systems typically have small stones which require you to do a lot of strokes.
My advice, raise the angle on the rig and micro bevel the edge. This will be done very quickly as the amount of metal you need to remove is very low so you can start with the finer stones. After doing this a few times the edge will get a bit thick so you will want to lower the angle back down and work with the coarse stones to slim it out. Then pop back up and micro bevel the edge again.
-Cliff
At blade of ATS-34 at 61 RC will take a bit of time to get sharp if it is really blunt unless you are using a really large fast cutting stone (8" DMT). The clamp and rig systems typically have small stones which require you to do a lot of strokes.
My advice, raise the angle on the rig and micro bevel the edge. This will be done very quickly as the amount of metal you need to remove is very low so you can start with the finer stones. After doing this a few times the edge will get a bit thick so you will want to lower the angle back down and work with the coarse stones to slim it out. Then pop back up and micro bevel the edge again.
-Cliff
I had an AFCK that just wouldn't take an edge to my satisfaction, it wasn't until I got the new Sharpmaker from Spyderco that I solved the problem. The new sharpener comes with medium grit stones and allows me to back-bevel (thin the shoulders of the edge). Once I re-ground the angle on the rough stones, I had no problem putting an edge on.
Some people don't like the Sharpmaker because the angle is set, but that's why I like it. I don't have to worry about matching angles, or rolling an edge. I've got knives from Spyderco, BM, MT, CRKT and I've had no problem. Hope this helps
Some people don't like the Sharpmaker because the angle is set, but that's why I like it. I don't have to worry about matching angles, or rolling an edge. I've got knives from Spyderco, BM, MT, CRKT and I've had no problem. Hope this helps
On the Benchmades I have owned I have used the DMTs with great success.
Now I use them on all of my knives and they work very well.
I am still looking forward to getting the 204 sharpmaker though.
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The greatest thought that has ever entered my mind is that one day I will have to stand before a Holy God and give an account of my life.
*Daniel Webster
Rev 20:12
Now I use them on all of my knives and they work very well.
I am still looking forward to getting the 204 sharpmaker though.
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The greatest thought that has ever entered my mind is that one day I will have to stand before a Holy God and give an account of my life.
*Daniel Webster
Rev 20:12
I have a Benchmade miniAFCK that gave me a surprise. It wasn't real dull but I wanted to touch it up so I ran it on my Spydie Sharpmaker, first course, then fine, then stropped it a wee bit and stuck it in my pocket. Next day I was dinkin' around with it and noticed there was a heavy burr edge on it! Weird. So I hit it hard with the spydie and no matter what I did I would get a burr edge on one side. Turns out the thing was ground asymmetrically and the spydie sticks were only catching the edge on one side of the knife. I put it on my Gatco and sharpened it until each side had a nice bevel with both sides symmetrical. I used the 25 degree angle and closely inspected the blade with a magnifying glass to be sure I had a full bevel across the entire edge.
THEN I hit it with the Spydie, then stropped it, and it is now a shaver. Moral of story: beware of some factory edges!
------------------
Hoodoo
Cogita tute
THEN I hit it with the Spydie, then stropped it, and it is now a shaver. Moral of story: beware of some factory edges!
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Hoodoo
Cogita tute
- Joined
- Oct 3, 1998
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- 1,654
..Seems that it isn't the steel causing the problem, it's the maker...Benchmades can be a real pain to shrpen, becuase the edges are done by hand, and are usually not symmetrical. I have a problem putting a good edge on a BM with my Apex, then I do with a Spydie Military, eventhough the 440V is "harder" to sharpen...go figure...
--dan
--dan
We have discussed this before, and I have to repeat muself once again:
The one and absolute knife sharpening truth is (thanks Joe!!) that IF YOU DON'T GET A BURR, YOU CAN'T GET A KNIFE SHARP.
You should drag the edge backwards on your fingernail and feel it "catch" slightly, that indicates that you have ground the opposite side far enough to go "over the edge". You then change side, and if your bevel is symmetrical, you just need to lightly stroke to get the burr off.
Note: the latest remark is to prevent one-sided grinding. Most people tend to grind on the left or the right side of their knives, so by the time they get a burr they have ground more than the other side, shifting the edge towards the other side.
I don't know if all this is clear but it is important to try to understand it.
Costas
P.S. thanks Joe Talmadge, I'm only repeating information here.
The one and absolute knife sharpening truth is (thanks Joe!!) that IF YOU DON'T GET A BURR, YOU CAN'T GET A KNIFE SHARP.
You should drag the edge backwards on your fingernail and feel it "catch" slightly, that indicates that you have ground the opposite side far enough to go "over the edge". You then change side, and if your bevel is symmetrical, you just need to lightly stroke to get the burr off.
Note: the latest remark is to prevent one-sided grinding. Most people tend to grind on the left or the right side of their knives, so by the time they get a burr they have ground more than the other side, shifting the edge towards the other side.
I don't know if all this is clear but it is important to try to understand it.
Costas
P.S. thanks Joe Talmadge, I'm only repeating information here.
- Joined
- Aug 24, 1999
- Messages
- 434
I have to respectfully disagree. While it's true that getting a burr is the way to know without question that you've brought the bevels together, it's quite possible to bring them together without making a burr at all. In fact, some think this is better because it removes less material.
To sharpen without creating a burr, you just alternate sides often and test for sharpness some other way, perhaps by shining strong light along the edge or by some other method.
If you've never sharpened a knife this way try it some time. I've got a little barlow that I brought back from near death to a polished razor edge without creating a burr at all.
------------------
Bill
"They'll say I was a musician, won't they?"
--Beethoven on his deathbed (and you thought nobody but you was insecure . . . )
GC,
As others have mentioned, I suspect that you may not be getting the bevels to actually meet. You may want to examine your edge under a strong light with a magnifying glass to determine if, in fact, you have two bevels going on each side -- the original factory & new ones you're creating. I believe Joe Talmadge mentions the use of a black marker in his sharpening FAQ to make it easier to actually see what effect you're having.
I have a Lansky & a Spyderco 204. Since the 204 is much faster to set up & use, it is the one I generally reach for. However, both are great sharpening systems. As much as I like the 204, your Gatco should be perfectly capable fo giving you the edge you want. Just keep working on those bevels.
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Cheers,
--+Brian+--
As others have mentioned, I suspect that you may not be getting the bevels to actually meet. You may want to examine your edge under a strong light with a magnifying glass to determine if, in fact, you have two bevels going on each side -- the original factory & new ones you're creating. I believe Joe Talmadge mentions the use of a black marker in his sharpening FAQ to make it easier to actually see what effect you're having.
I have a Lansky & a Spyderco 204. Since the 204 is much faster to set up & use, it is the one I generally reach for. However, both are great sharpening systems. As much as I like the 204, your Gatco should be perfectly capable fo giving you the edge you want. Just keep working on those bevels.
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Cheers,
--+Brian+--
Uncle Bill, of course you are right.
But, if you have the knowledge and the experience to sharpen without creating a burr, then you don't need to read this!
My point is that even complete novices can sharpen a knife if they understand the principle of the burr. From then on, after you have mastered it, it is possible as you say to sharpen and not create a burr (almost) at all. But all this is rather confusing to our friend, whose problem we are trying to solve.
[This message has been edited by Costas (edited 20 October 1999).]
But, if you have the knowledge and the experience to sharpen without creating a burr, then you don't need to read this!
My point is that even complete novices can sharpen a knife if they understand the principle of the burr. From then on, after you have mastered it, it is possible as you say to sharpen and not create a burr (almost) at all. But all this is rather confusing to our friend, whose problem we are trying to solve.
[This message has been edited by Costas (edited 20 October 1999).]
- Joined
- Aug 24, 1999
- Messages
- 434
Costas: Point well taken.
I've had good luck with the lansky system using their diamond hones. I start with medium if I need to re-bevel and then work my way down. On my ATS-34 Benchmades and Kershaws I can get a decently sharp edge using the 15 degree setting. I just go until I get a burr and then switch to a finer stone and repeat. The edge will shave although the hairs don't really pop off. I've found that to get the edge to last a little longer I need to move the finest stone up to 20 degrees and *gently* put a very, very small (microscopic?) secondary bevel.
Sharp, however, was redefined for me when I borrowed my father-in-law's Japanese water stones. I'm terrible at free-hand honing but with a little practice I was able to get the 1200 grit stone to give me a burr. Once I made it to that point I switched to the 6000 grit stone. That stuff is like dusty glass... It took me a long time to *remove* the burr from the 1200 stone but once I did the hairs would run screaming down the street if I even brought the edge near my them.
Practice and be patient, try to get a burr on each side before going to the next stone.
Jon
Sharp, however, was redefined for me when I borrowed my father-in-law's Japanese water stones. I'm terrible at free-hand honing but with a little practice I was able to get the 1200 grit stone to give me a burr. Once I made it to that point I switched to the 6000 grit stone. That stuff is like dusty glass... It took me a long time to *remove* the burr from the 1200 stone but once I did the hairs would run screaming down the street if I even brought the edge near my them.
Practice and be patient, try to get a burr on each side before going to the next stone.
Jon
Hi Guys,
Here's how I sharpen. I use the 19 degree bevel on the Gatco with a meduim stone making an equal number of strokes per side. When I'm sure the bevel is established, tight and neat, I move on to the fine stone. Using the fine stone and equal numbers of strokes per side, I hone until I get the fine burr edge which will roll over from side to side. Once I'm at this point, I go up to the 22 degree setting and very lightly stroke equally until the burr is gone. This only brings the edge to modicore sharpness (barely shave). I guess I'm underestimating the hardness of ATS-34 at RC-60 vs. the 440C type blades I'm used to. By being more specific, can you spot error in my technique? Your help is appreciated, thanks.
Here's how I sharpen. I use the 19 degree bevel on the Gatco with a meduim stone making an equal number of strokes per side. When I'm sure the bevel is established, tight and neat, I move on to the fine stone. Using the fine stone and equal numbers of strokes per side, I hone until I get the fine burr edge which will roll over from side to side. Once I'm at this point, I go up to the 22 degree setting and very lightly stroke equally until the burr is gone. This only brings the edge to modicore sharpness (barely shave). I guess I'm underestimating the hardness of ATS-34 at RC-60 vs. the 440C type blades I'm used to. By being more specific, can you spot error in my technique? Your help is appreciated, thanks.