Sharpening confession

mschwoeb

mschwoeb

Gold Member
Joined
Jan 31, 2001
Messages
3,743
Ok, here it is. I suck at sharpening.

I have the sharpmaker, I have followed the video. I have tried freehand. Over, and over again I have tried all these. And I cant sharpen nothin! My AR looses a fight with a piece of paper, and bounces of my hair.:(

Should I:
- give up, and just buy a new knife when mine is dull.

- buy an edgepro system and see if I can follow how to do it with it.

- or follow some real wierd process that involves the blood of a dozen chickens and some strange incantations to cause my knife to stay sharp.


And this is of course with steels such as BG-42. I have handled ATS-34 ok, but nothing to spectacular. I am just scared of what I will do when it comes time for me to handle S30V, and I dont even want to think about sharpening my Mayo.:eek:
 
Ceramic sharpeners do not remove material very fast. If your blade is significantly dull or its edge bevel is at a higher angle than the sharpmaker setting it will take a very long time to do the job. Try using only the corners of your darker (medium grit) rods. Try 40 strokes on each corner then clean your rods with Ajax or similar sink cleanser and water. Keep going for hundreds of strokes until the edge does a good job on paper. Only then switch to the flat sides of the rods for about 20 strokes per side. Then tilt your blade up to a higher angle than normal (not verticle) and alternating sides do about 20 more strokes at about 40 degrees per side (this is to remove the burr that you created by removing large amounts of material with a ceramic hone). Then go back to the normal verticle stroking method for about 10 strokes per side (alternating sides). If you feel like a smooth edge now use the flats of the white rods for about 5 strokes per side.

It would be a lot faster if you used a water stone, diamond hone, or silicon carbide bench hone for your initial rough sharpening.
 
It probably takes me about a thousand strokes to fully rebevel a medium-sized 154CM blade on the medium Sharpmaker stones. You can try propping up a stone or file against the rod, that'll make it a little faster.

A little hint for cleaning the rods: have a cup of water next to the Sharpmaker. Mix with Ajax if you think that'll clean more quickly. Every 20 strokes or so, stick a finger in the water and run it down the rod a few times. Your finger will turn grey very quickly, but this is a convenient way to remove the metal without running to the sink every time the stone is loaded.
 
Originally posted by mschwoeb

Should I:
- give up, and just buy a new knife when mine is dull.
Click to expand...

Do that one and send your old dull knives to me. I'll give them a good home:rolleyes: :D PM for address;)
 
Do not give up.

When I began sharpening my own knives in 1991 or so, I thought I did okay. I was sharpening small, cheap knives on a small, cheap Eze-lap -- a diamond coated rod that was held in the hand.

It was years later that I gradually came to the realization that what I had been doing was not good sharpening. I learned some, I got better, my knives were sharper.

Even later than that, I learned more, realized stuff about burr edges and such, and got even better. My knives were sharper for the right reasons.

Now I am pretty good at sharpening, and my knives cut like razors. I suppose there will always be progress to make, and whereas I didn't used to be able to see, from the present, how I would be better at something in the future, now I can. I have gained the ability to realize that at any given moment, I don't know all I am going to know. It has taught me the patience to wait for everything to come together and coalesce into knowledge.

I think that the next thing I'll probably end up better at (sharpening-wise) is making sure my bevels are nice and uniform. I have some concern that on some of my knives, I am unintentionally double-grinding them. In any event, the edges are still sharp.

The important thing is to keep doing it. I guess it would help if you were actually ignorant of the fact that you're not doing a good job. It takes some of the pressure to get better off of you, if you don't even know you need to get better, or that there's better to be got!

Go and read the BladeForums sharpening FAQ. It tells you really all you need to know to get started putting great edges on your knives. Experiment with different locations to sit at as you sharpen. Try different table heights. USE the MAGIC-MARKER-ON-THE-BEVEL technique. It WORKS. USE my LED LIGHT technique for detecting and eliminating burrs. IT works. (Should turn up in a search of LED on BladeForums.)

Good luck!
 
I've been sharpening since I was in my early teens. I was taught by my metalshop teacher who was also a knifemaker. He gave me the basics and explained all about different traditional oil stones. Japanese waterstones weren't talked about and diamonds were reserved for wedding rings as far as regular teenagers were concerned.

My knives are always sharp, but I'm still not convinced tehy're as sharp as they could be. Generally I can get them shaving sharp and the edges don't roll easily, but I can't get all the way to hair popping. I think to achieve hair popping, I need to invest in a good strop and some rouge.

I only bought a Sharpmaker 204 about a year ago, up until then I had used a soft Washita stone and a hard Arkansas (real natural stones). I find the Sharpmaker is great for edge maintainance, but removes too little metal for fixing a damaged edge. If I ding an edge as opposed to dull it (never have chipped one) I'll use the old bench stones. For the occasional touch-up of an EDC that is only a little dull from use the Shaprmaker works well.

I think for more agressive use like reprofiling an edge or cutting a new back bevel, especially on todays super steels, you really need to buy the diamond rods for the Sharpmaker. I have used them a couple times to reprofile an edge and they add tremendous versatility to the Sharpmaker. They allow the Sharpmaker to be a single package solution whereas without them I think you need a more aggressive benchstone for stuff that needs more metal removal.

I think Spyderco should offer a step up model that includes the diamonds as well as the ceramic rods. I believe there's enough people that would buy a "Sharpmaker Deluxe". How about it Sal? What about a Limited Edition bladeforums version? I'd like something that allows all three sets of rods to be stored in one package like the existing 204.

jmx
 
What about a Limited Edition bladeforums version? I'd like something that allows all three sets of rods to be stored in one package like the existing 204.
Click to expand...

How about all four versions of the rods. There is the ultra fine rods also.

I bought the sharpmaker because I have a good number of recurves. I think I will try to find some diamond rods.
 
Buy the EdgePro Apex.

If you decide that even that doesn't do the trick for you, then put it up for sale here or on KF's. I'm quite sure it will go off in quick time, for not much less than the purchase price.

Learning to sharpen like PJ says, well it's admirable and is worth pursuing, especially for field situations. It does sound however as if you are going to need something serious, to tide you over until such time as you reach a certain level.

The EdgePro is your best bet.
 
Should I:
- give up, and just buy a new knife when mine is dull.
Click to expand...
Do that one and send your old dull knives to me.
Click to expand...
I can propose you better business – send all your dull knives to me and I’ll send you back each second one decently sharpened.
Just kidding of course.

Sharpening does not contain any black magic, no chicken blood and odd rituals are required – just patience and understanding what you are doing. Sharpmaker is great tool, however added manual and video work well only if you need to touch up your blade, not if it is really blunt.

Please read carefully Joe’s Sharpening FAQ, get black marker and 5-10x magnification glass and try to follow sharpening process step-by-step with care and understanding. First of all mind what exactly you are grinding!
 
Originally posted by mschwoeb
I cant sharpen nothin! My AR looses a fight with a piece of paper, and bounces of my hair.:(

:eek:
Click to expand...

Hey, it's a strider... it's not supposed to be sharp... it's a prybar.

:D
 
Before you spend more money, try this:

take your AR and use a magic marker to coat the edge. Then take a couple of passes on the sharpmaker, and examine the edge. If the stones are contacting the bevel exactly, the black marker should be almost ocmpletely removed. If the marker is only removed at the very edge, with black remaining above the very edge, that means the sahrpmaker angle is larger than the edge bevel. If the black remains on the very edge while the black was removed above the very edge, that means the sharpmaker angle is shallower (more accute) than the edge bevel on your AR.

The first 2 situations are fine. It is the last one you have to deal with. I suspect the bevels on your AR are set larger than 40 degrees included (the largest angle on the sharpmaker is 40 degrees included). So, all you really need to do is thin out your edge bevel. GO buy a coarse hone (a nice large silicone carbide stone is great, or a diamond hone). Then in a scrubbing motion, go ahead and thin out your edge bevel. You can do the magic marker trick again to check your angle. Scrub on one side a bit, then flip and do it on the other, alternating sides maybe 3 times. THis is just to keep the edge grinds even. Then you want to scrub and raise a burr on one side, and then alternate to the other side and raise a burr. THen I would do a few alternating strokes just to align the burr. With the edge bevel thinned out (say at 30 degrees) it is a trivial matter to set an edge on the sharpmaker- using the 20 degree setting, sharpen on one side until you raise a burr (it won't take long), then the other side until you raise a burr, and then do a bunch of alternatings strokes while lessening the pressure you use. Make sure you use the corners as well as the flats- using just the corners will round off your tip. Then use your white triangle stones if you want the edge more polished. As time goes by, you will have to go back to re-setting hte edge, but fortunately you don't have to do it all that often.


The Edge Pro sounds like a great rig, and you would be able to sharpen your AR without difficulty with that rig, as there is a larger range of degree change available. But by thinning out your AR's bevel and using your sharpmaker to set the edge, you can solve your problem for whatever a coarse hone costs you, and you will probably find that the AR will cut better too (thinner bevel, better cutting ability).

What the Edge Pro would do for you is reprofiling and edge setting easily and quickly, and you have a greater range of grits and angles available. If that sounds appealing to you, then by all means get the Edge Pro. But as I laid out above, you can definitely use your sharpmaker, in conjunction with a coarse hone, to get great edges.
 
I probably was in your situation a couple of years ago. I've also been sharpening since my early teens (nearly 30 years ago!) so I am somewhat familiar with the various methods. I was frustrated because I couldn't get my knives as sharp as I wanted. I researched various tools, the use of waterstones, oilstones, you name it.

Finally, I went back to basics - paying carful attention to what I was doing, and visualizing what needed to be done (I used the Magic Marker "trick" expertly described by Crayola). I'm not saying that you are sloppy, but I was getting that way because, of course, I'd been sharpening so long, I "knew everything" :D

I did learn one trick that seems to be somewhat controversial: after sharpening on a coarse, then fine ceramic rod at 20 degrees (from vertical), I now make 2 or 3 passes on each side, very lightly, on the fine rod at 30 degrees. I don't remember where I heard of this, but it is supposed to put a final polish on the very edge of the blade.

After all of this, my Police Model is "hair popping" sharp; the blade barely touches the skin on my arm as the hair comes off with hardly a tug.

Hope I didn't stray too far off topic :)
 
Spend more money, but only a couple of bucks. Pick up some adhesive backed Hand American wet/dry paper, ranging in grit from 440 grit to 2500 grit. Place the paper on a mouse pad for convex edges, and on a hard flat surface for normal edge grinds. Use a stropping motion to sharpen your blades. Using wet/dry paper, you can reprofile an edge in under a minute. Touch-ups require only a few seconds. The stuff works incredibly fast.

My sharpening problem, for a long time, was that my strokes were inconsistent. The angle would change ever so slghtly over a large number of strokes, leaving a less than perfect edge. The wet/dry paper requires so few a number of strokes, all you have to do is to get the angle right a couple of times in a row. Do your last couple of stokes on whatever grit gives you the level of polish you like on your blade. I use 600 or 800 grit for heavy use blades, and up to the 2500 grit for wood working.

At worst, this will give you an incredibly efficient system for reprofiling your edges. Then you can use your SharpMaker for touch-ups. At best, you'll never need anything else. SIC wet/dry paper was a revelation to me.
 
How high above the paper do you hold the spine? I have tried the wet/dry paper from Walmart, and I smooth the paper before I sharpen the knife, I'm sure I'm either using too much pressure or the wrong angle. I'll try it with a marker.

Since you have been so diligent about answering all of these sandpaper questions, if you would like, I would be happy to search on your answers and combine them for you so that you don't have to answer them over and over. Perhaps we can get a convex edge FAQ added to the forums. There certainly is enough interest!

Thanks for all the answers and suggestions.

mschwoeb, don't give up. Once you get your first hair poppin' edge, the thrill will keep you coming back for more, just like a junkie... :eek: ;)
 
Become very good friends with a knifemaker who lives close by.

Take him a pie every time you go over...............and your shapening problems will be history.
 
Mschwoeb,

I also have a Strider AR, and contrary to the belief that Striders are folding prybars, Mick has always said that his knives are to be SHARP.

I don't think this new S30V presents that much of a challenge. I am a firm believer in the Edge Pro, and I was so worried about this new steel, I asked Ben Dale for diamond inserts. None were needed.

The first time I sharpened the knife, it was 'so-so.' It cut paper okay, and did every day chores. The second sharpening brought out the beast! I now sharpen with the 320 grit stone only, and break the burr with the 4000 series tapes. Touch my edges at your own risk.

The new SnG is following the same route. I think you should invest in the Edge Pro. Tell Ben I convinced you; I've helped him sell seven already, and everyone is thrilled.
 
Originally posted by tom mayo
Become very good friends with a knifemaker who lives close by.

Take him a pie every time you go over...............and your shapening problems will be history.
Click to expand...
Kinda reminds me of some dude who told me how he drove by Bill Moran's place, saw the big sword sign outside, and went in to ask him how much it would cost to make a sheath for his cheap bowie. :) "Gee, who woulda guessed he was a world-famous knifemaker?" The dude told me that Moran was a really nice guy though.

I've thought about getting myself a belt grinder. The Kalamazoo 1SM 1x42 grinder costs $180, which isn't much more than the Edge Pro. The grinder would also be useful for other things, unlike a dedicated sharpening system.
 
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