Sharpening help for beginners - which stone and how to use?

jprime84

jprime84

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Jul 7, 2014
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I have been trying my hand at using stones to sharpen my knives with mixed results. I am sure part of my issue is consistency on my part.

Right now I have the following stones
-Smith's 600 grit Arkansas stone - http://www.smithsproducts.com/product/mbs6-6-medium-arkansas-bench-stone/
-King 250/1000 grit whetstone - http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00200L90I/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o08_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

I use the arkansas stone with a spinkling of water on the top, and moving the knife in one direction only. For the whetstone, I soak the stone for 15 minutes or so, and then keep it slightly damp while working the knife forwards and backwards as I saw some japanese chefs on youtube demonstrating the technique.

I have found that I get a much better all around sharpness from using the arkansas stone. With the whetstone, I build up the silty material during sharpening and the edge looks really good but isnt really that sharp - no where near push cut sharp. On the arkansas stone, I can get most of my knives to shave hair off my hands. I would have thought that the higher grit could get me a finer edge, but clearly I am doing something wrong.

Any advice?
 
You might switch to edge-trailing strokes ONLY, to do the finishing touches on the waterstone (King). I don't use waterstones myself (yet), but sometimes the stones which shed grit during use will tend to blunt the apex as the loose grit collides with the finer edge, in edge-leading strokes. Some oilstones will also behave this way, and some of the soft Arkansas stones as well. For doing the basic shaping or thinning of bevels, I'm sure the back/forth stroke is fine (and faster). But when the edge becomes thinner and more refined, edge-trailing strokes (with the edge following the spine) will help protect the sharp apex from the loose grit, and will also prevent the edge from gouging into the stone (which obviously can dull it).


David
 
Here is another question. I am reading a lot about building up a burr, but in my mind it seems like I would have to do only edge trailing strokes to create a burr on the other side. Yet, the instructions with the stone tell me to use edge leading strokes. Should the emphasis during sharpening be on the edge leading or edge trailing strokes?
 
jprime84 said:
Here is another question. I am reading a lot about building up a burr, but in my mind it seems like I would have to do only edge trailing strokes to create a burr on the other side. Yet, the instructions with the stone tell me to use edge leading strokes. Should the emphasis during sharpening be on the edge leading or edge trailing strokes?
Click to expand...

For the sake of building a burr, the pressure exerted on the edge will be the bigger influence. Doesn't matter much whether it's edge-leading or -trailing, for the purpose of creating the burr initially (at least on the fixed-abrasive stones that don't shed grit). There will be individual preferences in how best to remove the burr; some swear by edge-leading for this, and others favor edge-trailing (such as stropping with compound, which is essentially intended for de-burring). A lot depends on the steel itself and the individual abrasive types used to sharpen it, as well as the technique of the user (pressure exerted, angle modified, etc).

Getting back to loose-grit stones, some have said that the loose grit will act to minimize burring, especially if used with back/forth strokes as mentioned earlier, which will tend to dislodge weakened bits of steel (burrs) in the collisions with loose grit on the stone.


David
 
Your observations could simply be because the soft Arkansas stone is a little finer than the 1000 grit water stone. In theory the 1000 grit JIS stone is 550 grit ANSI give or take. The soft Arkansas could be finer; it's natural so it's not any kind of exact measure.

From my experience, I get blades WAY sharper from a medium Spyderco than from a 1000 grit water stone. The Spyderco medium should be roughly 700 to 900 grit, though "the chart" shows it around 600.

If you had a 5000 grit waterstone too and you were having the same observations, I'd think it might be technique related. Mine certainly needs work on the waterstones. :)

Brian.
 
The higher grit rating on the Kings is in a different standard and the Arkansas stones tend to create edges a bit above their rated level, so not surprising the King 1k is lagging compared to the Smith's, they are about the same rating on paper.

The loose grit from a softer waterstone can make for a very easy grind as the bit of lapping action will create a smaller burr (generally) than a regular hard stone, but can dull the final edge if not taken into account. The best option when finishing the edge off is probably to rinse the stone well and use the lightest pressure you can manage - play around with the waterstone slurry when doing any initial bevel setting to get a feel for how it works.


Check out some Murray Carter videos, as he does a lot of work with the King 1k and you can see exactly how he goes about it.
 
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Thanks for the replies!

I ordered a 6k stone and a strop so I will do some research, watch some vids, and try again later.
 
I did watch some vids - I think a key thing that I was missing was the finer ending strokes, the stropping motion he used on the stone, and the burr removal. I also noticed that on my izula I had a nice even grind down on the edge but the belly was not as even. Its hard to get an even grind along that curved surface. More practice!
 
Always a tough area to control at first. Note how MC breaks the edge down into smaller sections as he grinds, only using controlled sweeps while backhoning with very deliberate and light pressure.

One trick I still use - if unsure of the exact bevel to stone angle, I will lower the spine and make a few very light passes on the shoulder, elevate the spine till I just feel the edge starting to catch, and drop it back down till I'm between those two points for some grinding. As the bevel gets re-set and flattens out, the amount of wiggle room between points will decrease. If its small to start with (nice flat bevel face), or after it trues up some, I'll only recalibrate by lowering the spine to feel the shoulder and then back up. When you run out of wiggle room it will feel catchier on the stone as the apex is now in 100% contact. You've now ground a new cutting edge and and raised a small burr, and that bevel should be mighty flat.

The key is recognizing the sensation the steel makes as it moves across the stones depending on where its contacting the edge. When you start out its just a whisper in a field of static, but will become much clearer with some practice. The method employed by MC and many, many others to place the off hand fingertips on the blade right where you're grinding cannot be recommended enough.

Martin
 
" place the off hand fingertips on the blade right where you're grinding"

THIS is what enabled me to go from making a knife duller to getting a decent edge free hand. Well, that and annoying my wife by spending a lot of hours on the back porch sharpening...
 
Got my japanese 6000 grit stone in today and put a mirror finish on my esee izula and esee 5, but they dont seem especially sharp. I can sorta cut printer paper but not very smoothly. Very frustrating.

When I develop a burr on one side, whats the immediate next step? Remove the burr? Begin to sharpen the other side? Strop on leather?
 
jprime84 said:
Got my japanese 6000 grit stone in today and put a mirror finish on my esee izula and esee 5, but they dont seem especially sharp. I can sorta cut printer paper but not very smoothly. Very frustrating.

When I develop a burr on one side, whats the immediate next step? Remove the burr? Begin to sharpen the other side? Strop on leather?
Click to expand...


basic steps would be, using the 1k stone, raise a burr on one side. Swap to the other side and raise a burr. Remove the burr as best you can on the 1k. The better you do this, the better your results will be when you continue. At this point if you're working on a utility edge, finish with a few very light backhone passes on the 1k, and strop on newspaper wrapped around another stone, preferably a dry one.

If you're moving on to the 6k, you can continue with a scrubbing type of pass, raise a small burr, flip, just as you did with the 1k, finishing in the same manner with a few backhone passes and if desired with a few passes on newspaper. If done correctly the edge will be screaming sharp.

The devil's in the details though. Tactile feedback on the 6k is almost nil compared to the 1k, so its real easy to elevate the spine unconsciously in an attempt to get more feel. You have to counter this. When backhoning on the 6k there will be almost zero feedback that you will recognize as such without some practice. Again, check out all the Murray Carter videos you can find and note the details - nothing is insignificant. How he de-burrs, the path he uses across the stone, everything.

The sharpening widget I sell through the website below can be used very much like the waterstones and I have a copy manual and lots of videos showing how to use it, might be of additional hep. Just substitute the 600 grit wet/dry for your 1k stone and the compound on paper for the 6k. The mechanics of how they're used will be identical with one important distinction - backhoning on the 6k needs to be done with very light pressure, very deliberate strokes.

Go slow and be critical of your mechanics, stability is very important especially at the higher finishes. I'd also practice on some knives with little personal value till you get a handle.
 
HeavyHanded said:
basic steps would be, using the 1k stone, raise a burr on one side. Swap to the other side and raise a burr. Remove the burr as best you can on the 1k. The better you do this, the better your results will be when you continue. At this point if you're working on a utility edge, finish with a few very light backhone passes on the 1k, and strop on newspaper wrapped around another stone, preferably a dry one.

If you're moving on to the 6k, you can continue with a scrubbing type of pass, raise a small burr, flip, just as you did with the 1k, finishing in the same manner with a few backhone passes and if desired with a few passes on newspaper. If done correctly the edge will be screaming sharp.

The devil's in the details though. Tactile feedback on the 6k is almost nil compared to the 1k, so its real easy to elevate the spine unconsciously in an attempt to get more feel. You have to counter this. When backhoning on the 6k there will be almost zero feedback that you will recognize as such without some practice. Again, check out all the Murray Carter videos you can find and note the details - nothing is insignificant. How he de-burrs, the path he uses across the stone, everything.

The sharpening widget I sell through the website below can be used very much like the waterstones and I have a copy manual and lots of videos showing how to use it, might be of additional hep. Just substitute the 600 grit wet/dry for your 1k stone and the compound on paper for the 6k. The mechanics of how they're used will be identical with one important distinction - backhoning on the 6k needs to be done with very light pressure, very deliberate strokes.

Go slow and be critical of your mechanics, stability is very important especially at the higher finishes. I'd also practice on some knives with little personal value till you get a handle.
Click to expand...

Thanks for the detailed response!
 
So last night I set back to work practicing on some cheap Chigago Cutlery kitchen knife that would just tear printer paper when I started.

I started on the japanese 250 grit stone and evened out the edge, removing some chips, and establishing a scratch pattern. I worked slowly with much lighter pressure than I have in the past. I built up a burr visibly glinting in the right light.
Next, I moved to the japanese 1k stone. I concentrated on maintaining my angle, and working the edge until I got a burr I could feel. I would then lightly strop in edge trailing strokes and go to the other side.
Next, I moved to the japanese 6k stone I just got. This time, I made sure to concentrate on my angle. I was definitely digging the edge in looking for some kind of feedback like you said. This time, i kept my offhand fingers right on the blade and moved it with very light pressure. It felt like gliding the blade over a sheet of melting ice. I had a hard time detecting a burr on the 6k stone, but I worked it this way until the edge looked uniform, switched to the other side and repeat.
Finally, I stropped on a cowhide strip. This time using the same angle as the stone and light pressure. I think I was rounding my edge with heavy pressure on the leather before.

The final result took about 30 minutes but was a mirror finish edge that not only sheared through printer paper, but glided through thin receipt paper effortlessly and without any snags. I have a bald patch on my arm where the edge shaved cleanly under the weight of the knife. I was so excited. Thanks again for the tips.

I did order a sharpmaker to try and get my recurve blades sharp. It comes tomorrow. I just seem to make them worse on the flat stone.
 
jprime84 said:
So last night I set back to work practicing on some cheap Chigago Cutlery kitchen knife that would just tear printer paper when I started.

I started on the japanese 250 grit stone and evened out the edge, removing some chips, and establishing a scratch pattern. I worked slowly with much lighter pressure than I have in the past. I built up a burr visibly glinting in the right light.
Next, I moved to the japanese 1k stone. I concentrated on maintaining my angle, and working the edge until I got a burr I could feel. I would then lightly strop in edge trailing strokes and go to the other side.
Next, I moved to the japanese 6k stone I just got. This time, I made sure to concentrate on my angle. I was definitely digging the edge in looking for some kind of feedback like you said. This time, i kept my offhand fingers right on the blade and moved it with very light pressure. It felt like gliding the blade over a sheet of melting ice. I had a hard time detecting a burr on the 6k stone, but I worked it this way until the edge looked uniform, switched to the other side and repeat.
Finally, I stropped on a cowhide strip. This time using the same angle as the stone and light pressure. I think I was rounding my edge with heavy pressure on the leather before.

The final result took about 30 minutes but was a mirror finish edge that not only sheared through printer paper, but glided through thin receipt paper effortlessly and without any snags. I have a bald patch on my arm where the edge shaved cleanly under the weight of the knife. I was so excited. Thanks again for the tips.

I did order a sharpmaker to try and get my recurve blades sharp. It comes tomorrow. I just seem to make them worse on the flat stone.
Click to expand...

Good work! On some of those polishing grade waterstones (and many polishing grade stones) you can tell you're at the right angle by the lack of feedback. It picks up again just as you start to grind a new apex. Sometimes if I'm getting a bit lost, I'll lower the spine for a light pass or two and recalibrate on the increased feedback, then elevate the spine till it lets off and keep going. This keeps the bevel flat and the edge as acute as intended without the angle creep that is all too common on finer stones and strops.

A light stropping on newsprint over a dry stone will really make that edge sing.

On my waterstones I leave one long edge crisp, and radius one long edge so its a bit rounded - do all my recurves right on that.

Once again, well done!

Martin
 
HeavyHanded said:
Good work! On some of those polishing grade waterstones (and many polishing grade stones) you can tell you're at the right angle by the lack of feedback. It picks up again just as you start to grind a new apex. Sometimes if I'm getting a bit lost, I'll lower the spine for a light pass or two and recalibrate on the increased feedback, then elevate the spine till it lets off and keep going. This keeps the bevel flat and the edge as acute as intended without the angle creep that is all too common on finer stones and strops.

A light stropping on newsprint over a dry stone will really make that edge sing.

On my waterstones I leave one long edge crisp, and radius one long edge so its a bit rounded - do all my recurves right on that.

Once again, well done!

Martin
Click to expand...

How would I radius an edge?
 
jprime84 said:
How would I radius an edge?
Click to expand...

Just take your Smith's 600 grit stone and some water, rub the stones together. Use the flat of the Smith's and just shape one long edge of your waterstones so its nice and uniformly shaped. It doesn't need to be a big rounded section, most recurves can easily be done on a slightly rounded over edge. Will need very light pressure and be extra careful not to dig in the cutting edge.

Is exactly the opposite of doing the belly, elevate the handle on the belly, lower the handle on the recurve. Just have to imagine the profile though, most recurves are a lot less aggressive than most outside edge curvature, only have to lower the handle a slight amount. A Sharpie helps to get started.

Handling recurves in this manner was one of the reasons I initially tried waterstones, though it works on any stone. The waterstones are a lot easier to shape.
 
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