Sharpening/Honing Recommendations?

[3ree7teen]

Hello all,
I am new to knives in general, and feel that I lack significant knowledge in many fields of knife making, including sharpening and therefore have some questions, and then would like your recommendations. First of all, I am wondering what the differences are between sharpening stones and honing stones, and whether or not is it recommended to get them wet or dry. I'm also confused with what a whetstone is and how it differs from the two mentioned above. Also, I am slightly familiar with stropping, but still don't really know how it works, or what exactly it does to the blade, or for what kind of situations it would be used in.
I am looking for a coarse/medium stone and a fine/very fine stone.
If I am in the wrong place here, please redirect me.
-Andrew

 

[chococrazy]

Hello all,
I am new to knives in general, and feel that I lack significant knowledge in many fields of knife making, including sharpening and therefore have some questions, and then would like your recommendations. First of all, I am wondering what the differences are between sharpening stones and honing stones, and whether or not is it recommended to get them wet or dry. I'm also confused with what a whetstone is and how it differs from the two mentioned above. Also, I am slightly familiar with stropping, but still don't really know how it works, or what exactly it does to the blade, or for what kind of situations it would be used in.
I am looking for a coarse/medium stone and a fine/very fine stone.
If I am in the wrong place here, please redirect me.
-Andrew

Sharpening stones and honing stones aren't actually that different. A honing stone is usually referred to as being a much higher grit mainly used for "polishing" the edge. A sharpening stone is what you use to remove the amount of metal to get the new edge out, and begins the new edge. Wet, dry, or oil depends on the stone. Most stones recommend wetting them with either water or oil, but many report succes with dry stones and wiping the swarf (metal buildup) from the stone frequently. When you use oil on a stone you have to continue oiling or just use it dry water is no longer an option.
Stropping is the term used to refer when polishing out/ removing what ever burr is left from the other sharpening processes. This step is optional, but will give you the sharpest edge possible. Stropping is usually done with leather with or without compound which adds abrasiveness to the leather. The leather polishes out the scratches and give you a near mirror finish, allowing more rust protection and less friction when cutting. It will also enhance the longevity of the edge is it slight convexes it, and you can strop the edge back to it's original sharpness frequently.
If you are new to sharpening I would recommend a Jig system such as the DMT aligner or the Edge Pro (aligner is more new friendly). The aligner uses diamond stones which is mostly what is used now. They both use water as a medium over the stones. If you want to dabble into convexing get yourself a nice soft, big mouspad like the old style one, and go to either walmart and an auto body store and buy pieces of sand paper called Wet/Dry they should have a range up to 2000 grit buy a piece of each grit after 600. Then wrap the sand paper around the mousepad and lay the blade nearly flat and sharpen in a stropping motion (the spine should be moving towards you on the in stroke, and the edge should be facing you and moving back on the out stroke). Hope I helped and sorry about the wall of text .

 

[Jason B.]

Keep things simple and call them stones, in sharpening you will find many "complex" terms try to not get confused by them.

Stone selection: what type of steels and blade styles will you be sharpening? Also what method would you like to try first?

Stropping with bare strop leather: Strop leather has gone through a special process that brings out the natural silicates, this is the micro abrasive that polishes the steel. Its the reason using the correct leather is important.

Stropping with compound: You can use many different surfaces including wood, glass, paper, or my favorite....... leather. Using different grades of compound allows you to control the step down of very fine grits and better refine your scratch pattern.

 

[3ree7teen]

Awesome, thanks for the info chococrazy.
Knifenut: I would be sharpening steels such as 154CM, ATS-34, D2, S30V, VG-10, and maybe some A1.
I don't know what you mean by what "method" I would want to use? I don't think I'll be messing with stropping for a while, if that's what you mean.
Thanks again, the information is great.

 

[Jason B.]

Method= freehand, guided, semi-guided

How much are you looking to invest in equipment?

 

[ChapmanPreferred]

Another question is what edge style do you want to use: V (removing the same amount from both sides via flat sharpening media), or Convex (removing the same amount from both sides via a flexible sharpening media that as you press on it and it becomes concaved a bit). These are the most popular on folding knives that I have noticed.

 

[OldDude1]

Greetings 3ree17een: Perhaps the sharpening system with the shortest learning curve and least opportunity to screw up an edge is the Spyderco Sharpmaker. It is probably the easiest to use without prior sharpening experience. The Sharpmaker is excellent for maintaining a sharp edge. It can also be used to reprofile but is very time consumptive. You are however limited to two preset sharpening angles of either 30 and 40 degrees. Used as per the included video and printed instructions it will get the job done and produce a consistently even and sharp edge. At about $50.00, it comes with medium and fine grit ceramic rods, a DVD and instruction booklet. OldDude1

 

[3ree7teen]

I would like to get good at freehand, but would also like a guided system like Lansky or DMT if I want to be very precise, and I was looking to put a V edge on my knives. I've seen the Spyderco Sharpmaker before, but I would really like to do freehand, though it sounds like I can learn a lot by getting the Sharpmaker.

 

[chococrazy]

I would like to get good at freehand, but would also like a guided system like Lansky or DMT if I want to be very precise, and I was looking to put a V edge on my knives. I've seen the Spyderco Sharpmaker before, but I would really like to do freehand, though it sounds like I can learn a lot by getting the Sharpmaker.

Ok then if you want a V edge I would suggest you get a DMT aligner, mainly because the steels you sharpen are higher end/ harder steels which diamonds work well on. I'm not saying you CAN'T use waterstones with these it's just that diamonds would work better. A spyderco Sharpmaker would work for touch ups, but do get the UF rods. If you don't want to chuck out the extra money for the SharpMaker go with a high quality strop (Silicates are what you want Refering to Knifenut's post) I would suggest either HandAmerican leather or you can find leather from other mentionable site, but do get either Horsebutt/bull or Bark Tanned bovine.
My stropping set up is.
I start with a piece of rolled horse butt that is treated with low end Lowes compound (grits 4 and 5 it comes in tubes) this is a small strip that equals around 2~3 microns for the 5 and 1~2 microns,but the microns can go up to 6 on each I think. I use this to polish the shoulder of the V out. I do about 20 strokes each side for each grit.
I then move to a nice big strip of Bark Tanned Bovine (Vegetable tanned is what you want) treated with LIQUID .5 micron compound from handamerican (both the leather and compound can be purchased at Handamerican). I do about 30 strokes each side, this should give a nice shiny mirror, and a very very sharp edge.
To finish my edge off I use a piece of rolled horsebutt WITHOUT compound ( I knew there was something special when I got this)
This will return a little bit of a bit that will allow me to whittle free standing hair. I do about 40 strokes each side alternating on each stroke.


The reason why I have Liquid underlined and bolded is because liquid honing compound is 99.9% pure, and that .1% is the medium that exaporates. Compound bars can have as little as 20% Chromium Oxide, and the other particles can go up to 5 microns which is not what you want! Even when it's advertised as .5 if you look at the MSDS for them they have very little chromium oxide.

 

[stitchawl]

SNIP
I then move to a nice big strip of Bark Tanned Bovine (Vegetable tanned is what you want) treated with LIQUID .5 micron compound from handamerican (both the leather and compound can be purchased at Handamerican).

Choco, one small point to modify your excellent post...
If you're going to use any compound on your leather strop, it doesn't make a difference if that leather is veggie tanned or chrome tanned, just so long as it's firm. The 'reason' to use veggie tanned leather for stropping is that veggie tanned leather has a high silicate level, and it's those silicates that are doing the work for you when you strop. Chrome tanning removes the silicates from the leather. Compound covers up those silicates. Silicates are really tiny. They range in size in leather from .001-.1 micron. Much smaller than .5 micron diamond crystals. Covering them up negates their value. Cut up the boss's leather trench coat (garment leather is usually chrome tanned,) and make some nice strops for use with compound. Keep the veggie tanned leather for bare strops!

(Note: This is not to say that you can't put compound on good leather. It's to say that you get the same results putting compound on MDF board or a smooth paint stirring stick. However, using leather is more fun! )

Horsehide that is vegetable tanned has a higher amount of silicates than vegetable tanned cowhide, making horsehide the preferred leather for a bare strop. Putting compound on a good quality strop is sort of like being soooo proud of your gold medal that you have it bronzed!!

Stitchawl

 

[chococrazy]

Choco, one small point to modify your excellent post...
If you're going to use any compound on your leather strop, it doesn't make a difference if that leather is veggie tanned or chrome tanned, just so long as it's firm. The 'reason' to use veggie tanned leather for stropping is that veggie tanned leather has a high silicate level, and it's those silicates that are doing the work for you when you strop. Chrome tanning removes the silicates from the leather. Compound covers up those silicates. Silicates are really tiny. They range in size in leather from .001-.1 micron. Much smaller than .5 micron diamond crystals. Covering them up negates their value. Cut up the boss's leather trench coat (garment leather is usually chrome tanned,) and make some nice strops for use with compound. Keep the veggie tanned leather for bare strops!

(Note: This is not to say that you can't put compound on good leather. It's to say that you get the same results putting compound on MDF board or a smooth paint stirring stick. However, using leather is more fun! )

Horsehide that is vegetable tanned has a higher amount of silicates than vegetable tanned cowhide, making horsehide the preferred leather for a bare strop. Putting compound on a good quality strop is sort of like being soooo proud of your gold medal that you have it bronzed!!

Stitchawl

Stitch,
I would have to disagree with you on the silicates point mainly because I have a belt (100% leather belt that is chrome tanned and is uncoated) I put my liquid .5micron compound it and stropped it away. Did the same thing with my veggie tanned leather, and it produced a MUCH better edge polished and sharp as a laser. I see it as putting water on a paper towel is different than putting water on a high quality microfiber. The paper towel will leave streaks and leave water after you wipe. When a microfiber won't take as much water in, but it won't leave streaks will polish better and leave better finish. Try this for yourself (don't use microfiber specifically made for wiping as it usually isn't true microfiber at all). I don't know why, but putting as thin a coat as possible provides the best finish. I think what's happening is that the Cro is removing metal, but the silicates are polishing the new metal that's left out. If I look closely at my strop with a magnifying glass there are parts where the tip is covered but the under part is not. This type of coating seems to provide the best finish. Hows that horse leather you got holding up?
By the microfiber's made for cleaning I mean use high quality ones (like the expensive ones or the eye glass cleaning ones that you can only see the threads if you look closely, and very had to rip). If you pour water of it will bead off, but the stuff that gets absorbed is more than enough. I see the same concept with a strop apply a thin leather, and try to work it into the leather as much as possible.

 

[David Martin]

Thats a lot of stropping and for sure a rounded bevel . DM

 

[stitchawl]

Stitch,
I would have to disagree with you on the silicates point mainly because I have a belt (100% leather belt that is chrome tanned and is uncoated) I put my liquid .5micron compound it and stropped it away. Did the same thing with my veggie tanned leather, and it produced a MUCH better edge polished and sharp as a laser.

Did you put the compound on the smooth finished side of the belt or on the inside of it? Is the belt leather as firm as the veggie tanned leather?

Logically, if you put a coating that is 1/2 micron thick on top of something that is only 1/10 micron, the half micron stuff is going to cover all the tenth micron stuff. How does the 1/10 micron stuff ever even contact the metal? The diamond crystals are too thick to allow it to happen. The diamond compound is a larger grit size than the silicates. Five times larger. Doesn't make sense to me...

Stitchawl

 

[chococrazy]

Did you put the compound on the smooth finished side of the belt or on the inside of it? Is the belt leather as firm as the veggie tanned leather?

Logically, if you put a coating that is 1/2 micron thick on top of something that is only 1/10 micron, the half micron stuff is going to cover all the tenth micron stuff. How does the 1/10 micron stuff ever even contact the metal? The diamond crystals are too thick to allow it to happen. The diamond compound is a larger grit size than the silicates. Five times larger. Doesn't make sense to me...

Stitchawl

I'm not using a diamond compound, I'm using liquid Chromium Oxide. The belt was firmer than my Veggie Tanned. I find this works best thought when the leather is heating, and the pores open.
Edit: Smooth finished.

 

[3ree7teen]

Stropping sounds like something that I might learn sooner than I thought, but for now I think I'll just go with the DMT Delux Aligner Kit. Would you guys recommend getting the EEF with the DMT?
I Googled handamerican and found their website, but all I could do was e-mail them. Do they take all of their orders through e-mail?
Also, when it comes to stropping, if I put on a component that makes the miron of the bare strop thicker, am I able to clean the component off to get back to the orginal micron of the leather, or does the strop just keep the micron of whatever component was on there last?
chococrazy, can you explain the very last paragraph in you second response(#9) because I didn't really understand most of what you were saying. Sorry if I am annoying you will how little I know. Thanks though for all this info, this is really great.

 

[Jason B.]

If you look at amazon.com you can combine the aligner kit plus the xc and eef stones for around $70 and yes the eef is very worth it.


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