No pun intended. All the advice and tips have helped me...shrink my burr. That is all I have been able to accomplish. I guess that it is sad because I thought I might control the burr for once. But it is just smaller and still robbing me of sharpness. I can still see the burr under strong light but it is very hard to feel. Maybe knives just don't get sharp like I think they should be able to.
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Sharpening is one of the hardest things I have tried.
- Thread starter Squashfan
- Start date
No pun intended. All the advice and tips have helped me...shrink my burr. That is all I have been able to accomplish. I guess that it is sad because I thought I might control the burr for once. But it is just smaller and still robbing me of sharpness. I can still see the burr under strong light but it is very hard to feel. Maybe knives just don't get sharp like I think they should be able to.
Bill DeShivs
Knifemaker / Craftsman / Service Provider
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Maybe you're pushing too hard.
BluntCut MetalWorks
Knifemaker / Craftsman / Service Provider
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Or you can give my approach a try http://youtu.be/l2ynSDYEUYI
Very good video, bluntcut. I have a lot of trouble when I try to go edge leading. I understand the concept. If I bring the knife up and let it rest on the bevel naturally, the stone starts cutting at the shoulder. Sharpie on the bevel told me this. I have tried to raise the spine but that causes a microbevel. This makes it a lot of work to get at the apex from the original angle.
Have you tried using two hands, like the Japanese do it? I found that the off hand, pressing straight down on the edge of the blade gave me a ton of "feel" of when the bevel was flat on the stone. Press *right* at the edge. On some knives I can just about support the entire blade with just the off hand and nothing touching the handle. The bevel should be flat. So you should be able to press it flat onto the stone! It's made an enormous difference for me.
Brian.
Brian.
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I'm going to throw in the possibility your stone might be glazed. IIRC you use an aluminum oxide stone with water and a bit of soap. You might find a world of difference if you switch to a silicon carbide stone and use mineral oil with it, or lap your existing stone and try with oil. A glazed stone will still grind, but won't have the nice abrasive potential to remove burrs with relative ease. The SIC has the added advantage that the surface refreshes itself as you grind when used with oil. The Home Depot Norton econo stone, ACE combination stone are both inexpensive options.
Am speaking from personal experience, I used to use soapy water on my aluminum oxide and SiC stones but noticed that over time they'd loose a step and have to be lapped to fully restore them. The tipping point was when I had to chase burrs that I felt should have come off cleanly, I knew the stone had lost critical bite. This is the cue for me to change out my sandpaper on the Washboard as well, when it either doesn't raise a burr fairly quickly (with an otherwise clean bevel) or struggles to remove one when working on the slack of the paper. With a sheet in good condition, I can lightly "dust" the burr off with some leading passes without even pressing the paper against the surface of the board.
To control the burr from start to finish you need a stone that grinds as cleanly as possible - is not enough that it be capable of tearing off steel. Sometimes it IS your equipment.
Martin
I use two hands most of the time. If what you are saying is right, the bevel is flat but I lack the skill to capitalize on that. 
I hadn't thought about it that way. Now there is a theory that makes sense to me. I knew it seemed strange that the bevel was always wrong. The bevel is right, it is me that is wrong.
I use my stones with mineral oil. But it could still be glazed from some sharpening in the past. Maybe I should lap them and try again. It will make it really coarse though.
I hadn't thought about it that way. Now there is a theory that makes sense to me. I knew it seemed strange that the bevel was always wrong. The bevel is right, it is me that is wrong.I use my stones with mineral oil. But it could still be glazed from some sharpening in the past. Maybe I should lap them and try again. It will make it really coarse though.
I wasn't trying to imply that your technique was bad. I was just suggesting a way that I have used to get very good *FEEL* feedback. When you use two hands, where do you put the fingers of your off hand? The hand that is not holding the handle.
You say your bevels are "wrong". Do they look consistent? I mean several things:
1. Are your bevels even from heel to tip?
2. Are they the same on both sides of the knife in terms of bevel width?
3. Do your bevels reflect light cleanly showing one reflected line, or do you see several facets reflecting light?
I suspect you might be not giving yourself enough credit. If you *just* have a problem deburring, there are many techniques to try. If your bevels need work, that's a different problem, but one you can get past with better technique.
Sharpening is "hard", but it's also easy. We tend to over complicate it here because we are all insane enthusiasts.
Brian.
You say your bevels are "wrong". Do they look consistent? I mean several things:
1. Are your bevels even from heel to tip?
2. Are they the same on both sides of the knife in terms of bevel width?
3. Do your bevels reflect light cleanly showing one reflected line, or do you see several facets reflecting light?
I suspect you might be not giving yourself enough credit. If you *just* have a problem deburring, there are many techniques to try. If your bevels need work, that's a different problem, but one you can get past with better technique.
Sharpening is "hard", but it's also easy. We tend to over complicate it here because we are all insane enthusiasts.
Brian.
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- Oct 1, 2011
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- 293
If the burr is hard to feel, you're ALMOST there. At that point I drag it across some newspaper. The non burr side will slide smoothly while the burr side will drag slightly. Try ONE light (almost no pressure) stroke on the burr side. If the burr remains on the same side, repeat. When the burr finally starts flipping from side to side, it's ready to strop. Once I get it as sharp as I can, I strop a few times on newspaper. Don't overdo it on the stropping. Two or three light strokes should do it. Good luck, hang in there and try not to get discouraged.:thumbup:
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I wasn't trying to imply that your technique was bad. I was just suggesting a way that I have used to get very good *FEEL* feedback. When you use two hands, where do you put the fingers of your off hand? The hand that is not holding the handle.
You say your bevels are "wrong". Do they look consistent? I mean several things:
1. Are your bevels even from heel to tip?
2. Are they the same on both sides of the knife in terms of bevel width?
3. Do your bevels reflect light cleanly showing one reflected line, or do you see several facets reflecting light?
I suspect you might be not giving yourself enough credit. If you *just* have a problem deburring, there are many techniques to try. If your bevels need work, that's a different problem, but one you can get past with better technique.
Sharpening is "hard", but it's also easy. We tend to over complicate it here because we are all insane enthusiasts.
Brian.
I place my finger as close to the edge as I can. This tends to be near the shoulder of the bevel not on the stone, that is to say the side up from the stone. I don't like grinding my finger tips off or having them slip in the path of the blade.
bgentry, you did NOT imply my technique was bad. That was solely my idea. I have learned that if I immediately blame things around me for my failure, I will often miss the the actual cause. Sometimes, it turns out to be my fault and other times it is not my fault. But if I say I am faultless right away, I could be blinded to the real cause.
I would describe my problem this way. The bevels are convex even though my hands go naturally to 20 dps. Just enough convex that it is hard for one stroke to go from bevel to shoulder. How do I describe this? If I make a light pass, sharpie is only removed from the shoulder. I have to do more stokes to get the apex. So it is always a game of getting to the apex across the bevels. It hurts burr control when you have to raise the spine, above 20 dps, to get to the apex with a light stroke. Does that make sense?
Refresh my memory. What stones are you using? What knives and steels are you trying to sharpen? What do you consider sharp? Are you just trying to get a knife sharp, or do you want a polished pretty bevel that is also sharp? What burr removal/minimization techniques have you tried? Are you against a guide or other equipment that will make holding an angle easier until you get the hang of it?
Is the coarse and fine sides of an alum oxide stone. I want what bluntcut said in his video "a durable, sharp edge". A knife should at least shave arm hair. No high polish, but a three finger sticky edge would be nice. I went freehand from a Lansky system. What kind of guide do you have in mind?
In light of my last post, I am starting to think that I have a bevel problem. Ugh, typing on a tablet is hard. Good night all.
In light of my last post, I am starting to think that I have a bevel problem. Ugh, typing on a tablet is hard. Good night all.
You can make a pretty simple guide like the one in my video here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9RLzk4XmP-k
You can also use scrap wood, a book, or whatever to prop up the end of your stone off a table, and hold the knife horizontally and sharpen that way. It's like laying my vertical block above on its back.
This is my standard recommendation. Cut into the stone like above to get an even start on your edge, and remove any semblance of a burr or weakened metal. Look for the little tiny reflection off the edge in a good light. This is the flat you just put on the edge. Now sharpen evenly on both sides until you can't see the reflection any more. If burrs are giving you trouble, it may be best to not form one to start with. After the edge no longer reflects light, give it one or 2 passes per side very lightly (less then the weight of the knife) at double the angle you were using. This is solely to remove any burr that was accidentally formed when removing the light reflecting flat above. Now, go back to the original angle and increase it just a little, 2 or 3 degrees per side is plenty. Alternate light passes until the edge is sharp. Light passes are again less than the weigh of the knife, and you may have to do quite a few passes.
If you have your stone with one end propped up horizontally, add about 1/4" worth of paper, a DVD case, CD case, etc. This will give enough of an angle increase. Raising the end of a 6" stone off the table 1.5 to 2.0 inches will give an angle of 15 to 20 degrees per side. If you have an 8 inch stone, raise one end 2.0 to 2.75 inches for about the same angle range.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9RLzk4XmP-k
You can also use scrap wood, a book, or whatever to prop up the end of your stone off a table, and hold the knife horizontally and sharpen that way. It's like laying my vertical block above on its back.
This is my standard recommendation. Cut into the stone like above to get an even start on your edge, and remove any semblance of a burr or weakened metal. Look for the little tiny reflection off the edge in a good light. This is the flat you just put on the edge. Now sharpen evenly on both sides until you can't see the reflection any more. If burrs are giving you trouble, it may be best to not form one to start with. After the edge no longer reflects light, give it one or 2 passes per side very lightly (less then the weight of the knife) at double the angle you were using. This is solely to remove any burr that was accidentally formed when removing the light reflecting flat above. Now, go back to the original angle and increase it just a little, 2 or 3 degrees per side is plenty. Alternate light passes until the edge is sharp. Light passes are again less than the weigh of the knife, and you may have to do quite a few passes.
If you have your stone with one end propped up horizontally, add about 1/4" worth of paper, a DVD case, CD case, etc. This will give enough of an angle increase. Raising the end of a 6" stone off the table 1.5 to 2.0 inches will give an angle of 15 to 20 degrees per side. If you have an 8 inch stone, raise one end 2.0 to 2.75 inches for about the same angle range.
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If your bevel is convexed as you described, I guess your hand stability is off. I too sometimes have this problem. Going back to HH tips might help: re-calibrate your angle. Go with short stroke (long stroke can lead to wrist swing).
An unstable hand will cause problem on burr removal, as you won't be able to 'kiss' the burr lightly on a single pass, and attempt to hit the burr might be too high, causing it to be recreated on the other side.
Another factor of convex bevel even when your hand is stable is dished stone.
If you have budget, I'd suggest get HH's washboard. It's a very good free hand learning tool because of the feeling/audible feedback & you won't have stone dishing problem. If not, at least get some wet/dry sandpaper laid flat on hard backing and give it a try. Start from 400 or less (depending how much bevel flattening you need) and go up to 1500 to 2000 grit. You'll have good working edge off the 'stone'.
Hope this helps.
An unstable hand will cause problem on burr removal, as you won't be able to 'kiss' the burr lightly on a single pass, and attempt to hit the burr might be too high, causing it to be recreated on the other side.
Another factor of convex bevel even when your hand is stable is dished stone.
If you have budget, I'd suggest get HH's washboard. It's a very good free hand learning tool because of the feeling/audible feedback & you won't have stone dishing problem. If not, at least get some wet/dry sandpaper laid flat on hard backing and give it a try. Start from 400 or less (depending how much bevel flattening you need) and go up to 1500 to 2000 grit. You'll have good working edge off the 'stone'.
Hope this helps.
Good thread and videos...about to try sharpening for the first time soon....I am now convinced I need to practice on a cheap knife before I sharpen my spyderco sage so I don't mess it up....was surprised to get the sage and it is pretty dull with a very thin edge...won't even cut paper....love the knife overall though
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I have been sharpening freehand for about 3 months now and I am getting pretty ok at it. It doesn't take long to get the hang of it.
Not an expert by any stretch of the imagination, but it helps to just practice slowly everyday.
Go to Good Will or Savers and grab a couple of cheapos. (Not too cheap...you can't sharpen crap steal)
Keep Sharper.
Not an expert by any stretch of the imagination, but it helps to just practice slowly everyday.
Go to Good Will or Savers and grab a couple of cheapos. (Not too cheap...you can't sharpen crap steal)
Keep Sharper.