Sharpening stone questions for acuto+

L

luisdent

Joined
May 29, 2012
Messages
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Hi, I have a CRKT Ken Onion Ripple 2 that is getting dull. I've never really sharpened a knife before, and I was looking for some tips on stone purchasing and usage. Let me explain my situation so far and perhaps someone could help?

This is my first 'nice' knife purchase. This thing was 'popping' hair off my arm out-of-the-box. Very impressive to me. I've used this knife soooo much, and the blade has held an edge very long. It is Acuto+ steel. I've ben using it to cut boxes (I hear this is the worst), cut rope, peel fruit (always wash the knife after) and many other basic tasks. I try not to cut anything I think would nick or damage the blade (metal wire - no matter how thin, etc.) After half a year at least of using this daily, it is now starting to have problems easily cutting through paper. I've noticed it slowly getting worse, I started researching sharpening.

I started with a pocket sharpening smith tool that you just slide the knife through. I did NOT do this on my ripple. I test everything with my swiss army knives. This took my incredibly dull swiss army knife and made it useable, but it didn't really get much sharper than my ripple is now. I tried a few times per the instructions and videos online with different stroke amounts on the hard and ceramic sides. Always the same edge. I think it is simply meant for utility perhaps. I want hair shaving sharp. My knife held it so long, and I want it back! haha

So, through all of my research, the most affordable, most simplistic solution appears to be the Spyderco Sharpmaker. I don't have a problem with this, and am still considering it, but I'm more of a 'traditional' kind of guy, and I like stones. I like the simplicity and the traditional style of it. It also gives you nearly unlimited edge angles based on technique.

So, I have a stone my father-in-law gave me, but I'm not sure if it is good or not. Remember, this is my first time using one. I took a dull swiss army knife and put marker on the blade edge. Per a bunch or resources and videos I think I have the angle/basics down. I proceeded to sharpen the blade using the general technique of keeping a consistent angle and starting with more strokes and then alternating and lessening the strokes. I tried this with varying amounts of pressure and stroke amounts. Each time the blade got to a certain level of sharpness where it doesn't really cut through paper without rubbing the knife back and forth to start it. Once it starts it cuts the paper o.k., but I can tell it isn't a nice smooth cut.

I'm curious if this is my technique or simply a rough stone that gets the blade edge going, but doesn't really get it 'sharp'? Here are some pictures of my stone and knives if it helps.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/41884932@N02/sets/72157632727407749/

I have bad lightening in my apartment and it doesn't probably show much, but the marker came off the blade edge completely despite the lightening in the photo. You can see leftover marker above the edge angle. So, I 'think' that means I did reasonably well with my angle. So, if I were to purchase finer stones, would my current technique continue the process into forming a nice sharp edge? Or do you think the stone I have should get the edge even sharper still? I can't tell if the stone is good or not as well. It is old and "feel" fairly smooth, but I assume it's possible that it is not flat enough and is preventing the blade from getting sharper?

With all of that said, I think I probably want to get at least two stones for my main goal of sharpening/maintaining the ripple. I want a general grit to touch up the blade and a finer grit to get it hair shaving sharp. Beyond that I can refine it, but it may not really be necessary to me. I'm thinking 800/4000 stones? I have seen reviews/videos of the Spyderco "Double Stuff", and it seems to get knives hair shaving sharp. I don't know the grit level, but that is portable and affordable.

I would prefer not having to use water or oil if possible, but if not I would rather use water and not oil for simplicity/availability sake. Can anyone let me know what they think of all this and what my best stone options are? Are there any affordable stones that will do this? They seems to go upwards of $100 for two stones... Let me know if you have any questions. Any help would be appreciated! :)
 
Got a picture of your stone? It sounds fine. There is no magic bullet product or short, written treatise that will give you the results you want. The only way to get what you are looking for is to read all the posts and stickies here, watch vids voraciously, and practice, practice, practice. You can do that with the stone you've got now, I can almost guarantee.

It's like playing the piano. A concert grand will not make you play Rachmaninoff like a god. Nor will responses on a forum. Tons of practice with some guidance when you get stuck (and can ask pointed, specific questions) is the only way to get there.
 
First, that dog photo is awesome. haha. Now that I have that out of the way...

You don't think the stone I have could be a low grit stone and therefor only allowing me to get so sharp? The general consensus I get is that you start with something like 800 to get the knife reasonably shaped/sharp and then to get it cutting smooth you go into the thousands of grits, and then to shave or pop hair you go above 1000 somewhere or to ceramic or something. And then if you want uber sharp you can strop it or continue to even high stone grits and use slurry and whatnot.

I just want to make sure my stone isn't a low grit and I just keep wasting metal by continuing to sharpen it over and over...

The link I put there doesn't seem to work. This should:
http://flic.kr/s/aHsjDVV91M

It looks to me to be in bad shape, but perhaps coloration and things are normal wear? I'm not sure. Please let me know what you think. If that were in fact the case, I would just want to know if there were affordable stones (let's say two stones) and which grits would be good for getting a good edge and then making it hair shaving sharp. I realize that isn't really hard to do from what people say, but I also don't need it any better than that for my purposes...
 
Your ideas tell me you haven't actually read any of the stickies or spent any time researching the treasure trove of information here...
 
Well, in fact I have spent hours researching this on this very forum. But I completely missed the stickies! I thought those were announcements or something, because they were highlighted in yellow and skipped over them to the "thread" posts. oops. :-P I'll check those out now. Wow, and I spent so much time sifting through threads...

On another note, I haven't been able to find info on whether I should water, oil or leave my stone dry. I can't seem to find stone identification pages anywhere... I don't want to ruin it (if it's good already) and I don't want to keep the sharpening from working either. Anyhow, I'll read the stickies and report back. :-)
 
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Your stone looks like it might need some cleaning to get the imbedded steel off of it. A good scrubbing under running water with a rough scouring pad should work wonders. It is hard to tell from the pictures, but it appears to be a fairly fine grain stone. With proper technique you can get a hair shaving edge with a 3 - 400 grit stone. I use the paper wheels to sharpen my knives, and the grit on the wheel is 180 grit. Pretty coarse in relation to most stones, but they will give me hair popping edges when used along with the slotted stropping wheel.
You can use some water on your stone without ruining it while sharpening. Just spray or sprinkle some water on it and have a go at it. It can only help, and will not hurt anything.
In fact there is a recent video on here by Carl (Jacknife) using only the bottom of a coffee cup to sharpen a knife to hair shaving sharp. He also used a rock he found in the parking lot to sharpen the same knife to cut very well. So, you don't need a drawer full of stones to get your knives sharp. What you have will do if used properly. After you get it down to producing sharp edges, then move up to a better, or more stones. It just takes practice and a good technique to achieve success. Good luck!

Blessings,

Omar
 
Thanks for the reply. I'm having a hard time understand what I'm doing wrong. I read through a lot of the forum and the stickies now. I've been trying a lot of different things, but I can't even get a clean paper "slice". ha.

Here are some more photos: http://flic.kr/s/aHsjDWrJ7J

I think the stone might not be flat, but I don't know how much that matters? I even tried just using an edge, which almost works better, but it's hard to tell.
I have used water on the stone from the beginning, because I read that oil can harm a waterstone, but water won't harm an oilstone. So worst case scenario, no harm done. I've dribbled on water and poured on water. Both seem to work the same.

I used some marker to cover the complete cutting edge. The knife was already very scratched, but you can see (I think) that I'm cleaning the marker off the cutting edge only and pretty much all of the cutting edge. I can't really ever feel a bur though. Sometimes I think I do, but I can't tell for sure. Does something look wrong with any of these photos? Am I missing something big? I know I'm new, so I could be way off, but I am pretty good with my hands, and I really feel like I'm keeping a consistent angle. At first I think I was too low at maybe 20. Then I jumped up to 40 or so (estimates) when I wasn't taking off the marker on the tip of the edge. I even tried 45 or 50. Nothing seems to change the sharpness at all. It doesn't seem to be getting duller or sharper.
 
O.k. I'm starting to get excited that there might be some hope left! I keep trying different things, and I've found two things that seem to help a bit. First, maybe this isn't good technique, but I've been going by the "look" of the blade instead of some specific angle. In other words, I lay the blade on the stone and watch the tip as I raise the blade angle. I find I can almost see when the blade is laying on the stone flat with the grinded tip. Second, I found that I wasn't getting the tip much with the marker. At least not evenly with the rest. So I started sort of rolling the knife almost like I'm not only turning the knife in a slicing motion but also rolling it onto the tip section in a way.

Anyhow, before I couldn't even slice through paper. Now I am able to slice paper with it at an angle one handed. It isn't a beautiful cut, but before it was no cut. So I'm hoping that's an improvement...
 
Three words: Practice Practice Practice

Your edge looks good and even. The rolling at the tip, or better stated, the slight lifting as you approach the tip is a good method. Just look at the edge often and correct as needed to get the results you are looking for. Your are getting there. Congratulations.

Blessings,

Omar
 
Looks like you have some loaded waterstones. Use some wet/dry sandpaper and lot of water to refinish/clean the stone surface then let them soak in water for about 10 minuter before use. After each use you should clean the metal off the surface with some fine sandpaper or a nagura stone. Now, I'm not 100% sure of the stone type but a waterstone in the King brand looks to be what you have if I had to guess.

The red one should be near 1000 grit and the whitish grey one looks like a 4000 grit but in the current condition its hard to tell.

Making a edge sharp is not dependant on the final grit but on the ability of the sharpener to define the geometric shape of the cutting edge and removing the debris from the ground edge (aka the burr). Once the shape is well defined and the burr/debris removed from the ground edge you are left with two intersecting planes that meet at a apex. Regardless of "grit" this finished apex will be sharp. How sharp is a bit of a perception as to how you understand sharpness.

To me sharpness starts when the apex has been cleaned of debris. The use of finer grits will make the scratch pattern of the edge smoother which in turn increases sharpness but the actual sharpness should start once the geometric shape of the edge has been defined.
 
luisdent said:
I used some marker to cover the complete cutting edge. The knife was already very scratched, but you can see (I think) that I'm cleaning the marker off the cutting edge only and pretty much all of the cutting edge. I can't really ever feel a bur though. Sometimes I think I do, but I can't tell for sure. Does something look wrong with any of these photos? Am I missing something big? I know I'm new, so I could be way off, but I am pretty good with my hands, and I really feel like I'm keeping a consistent angle. At first I think I was too low at maybe 20. Then I jumped up to 40 or so (estimates) when I wasn't taking off the marker on the tip of the edge. I even tried 45 or 50. Nothing seems to change the sharpness at all. It doesn't seem to be getting duller or sharper.
Click to expand...

Normally, you wanna keep the angle around 15 to 20 degrees per side. When your first starting out, it might be easier for you to just match the edge angle that's on the knife already. You can tell if your angle is off by where your removing marker from the edge. If your removing marker from the top of the bevel your angle is too low and if your removing marker from the bottom of the bevel your angle is too high.
 
Is it possible the factory edge on this knife was a bigger angle and therfore when i get it sharp that is why it isn't "really" sharp? Should I use a lower angle and just keep going until it reshapes the blade?
 
Yes, keep trying. Your stone needs cleaning. Use a wire brush and some Break Free or paint thinner. Then level it by scrubbing it on concrete and water. Then go back and try sharpening using a mark on the bevel. DM
 
Yes just like your sidewalk. If you have a hose? Use a small flow and keep the surface wet. Then with a circular motion grind the surface down so it is even. If you do not have a hose bring a bucket of water, pour a puddle and the dunk your stone often to keep it wet. It should not take you long at all? Keep going your almost there.
 
If your stone is a Japanese waterstone then solvents and concrete would not be the best of choices.
 
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Your stone does look like my natural AluminumOxide stone when it's loaded with non-metal materials. If so, it's probably around 80 or 120 grits. Just rub it on sidewalk (yes, quite sandy rough) will shed the loaded layer, exposing what's underneath. Heck it's upgrade time ;) and appropriate place to start in the journey of sharpening rabbit hole.

See HeavyHanded's video: http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/s...one-review-Vid?highlight=norton+economy+stone

Grab one at HD - yes, it's a SiC stone confirmed by David http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/s...-abrasive-type?highlight=norton+economy+stone.

Or if you want a higher quality and larger stone, search for Norton 8" Pike Crystolon 175th Anniversary Edition. Once you are ready to go beyond this new stone. Came back here to ask for more advices.
 
Cleaning really seem to work well:
http://flic.kr/s/aHsjDXccSy

It looks a lot better. I'm more concerned about the cut marks and the hole, and the general unevenness of the stone. Any thoughts on that? I'm not worried if I have to replace it. I'd like a nice waterstone. I'm going to try again now that I've cleaned it though.

I'll check out those videos too. Thanks.
 
luisdent said:
Cleaning really seem to work well:
http://flic.kr/s/aHsjDXccSy

It looks a lot better. I'm more concerned about the cut marks and the hole, and the general unevenness of the stone. Any thoughts on that? I'm not worried if I have to replace it. I'd like a nice waterstone. I'm going to try again now that I've cleaned it though.

I'll check out those videos too. Thanks.
Click to expand...

Yeah it looks much better. I would ignore the hole but would round the edge around chips, to avoid accidental edge dig. Grind away and post back your result. Also perhaps lower the sak blade angle a little more, say 17-20 degrees per side, it looks a bit obtuse right now (unless the image fooled me).
 
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