Sharpening Stones Question/s

J

Jrmysell

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May 18, 2014
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I've been doing some research on sharpening knives and I want to be able to freehand. I am a student so I can't buy the best of the best, but I want something that will last for a while and give good results (better results than I can get out of them right now). Would this combo work well or am I way off base? This will be for folding knives, fixed blades, and kitchen knives so a wide assortment.

XXC DMT Diamond Stone - For re-profiling older/damaged blades.
Norton 220/1000 Grit Combo Stone - For general use.
Norton 4000/8000 Grit Combo Stone - For blades that I want a more polished edge.

Do I need a flattening stone or can I just use sandpaper (don't remember where I saw that at)?
Do I need anything between the 220-1000 or between the 4000-8000?

Any other tips will be appreciated.
 
I would go for a 600-800 grit stone for really dull knives, 220 is just WAY to coarse for me.
Follow that up with a 1000 grit and 2000 grit. I usually finish with a 5000 stone, gives me a nice polish. I should be getting my stropping gear today, maybe you want to look into that as well :)
 
If you are planning on matching an XXC DMT with the Norton line of waterstones, it will work very well. They are made to work in a progression, so the 4000 follows the 1000 no problem. On lower RC steel, you can go straight from the 1000 to the 8000.

For a flattening stone I use a large cut off wheel from HD, cost about 6 bucks.
 
Jrmysell said:
I've been doing some research on sharpening knives and I want to be able to freehand. I am a student so I can't buy the best of the best, but I want something that will last for a while and give good results (better results than I can get out of them right now). Would this combo work well or am I way off base? This will be for folding knives, fixed blades, and kitchen knives so a wide assortment.

XXC DMT Diamond Stone - For re-profiling older/damaged blades.
Norton 220/1000 Grit Combo Stone - For general use.
Norton 4000/8000 Grit Combo Stone - For blades that I want a more polished edge.

Do I need a flattening stone or can I just use sandpaper (don't remember where I saw that at)?
Do I need anything between the 220-1000 or between the 4000-8000?

Any other tips will be appreciated.
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You will definitely need the flattening stone. Just get the whole kit, it's cheaper that way. No you don't need anything between but I would never finish with the 1k norton. It's far rougher then even a fine India in its polish and will not leave a serviceable edge. You could stop at the 4k if you want a toothed edge. The diamond stone isn't necessary but can be added for faster work. The 220 stone cuts very very fast. I've been using these stones for about a year and a half. Overall I like them, my main complaint is the 220 stone is too thin considering how fast it wears but I've also over used and abused it reprofiling tons of knives and even a sword, it's cheap to replace though if need be. These stones really work best when used in succession up to the 8k, the 1k and 4k stones are softer and cut fast and the 8k is hard and mainly polishes. If you really want a rougher edge left over I'd pick up a cheap India stone and use the fine. It leaves an edge a bit finer then the 4k but still very grabby
 
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Personally, I Wouldn't buy any of it. I have not heard bad things of the Nortons but in the world of waterstones they only seem to be favored by Razor Honers. I also think going from the DMT XXC to the 220 stone makes for a lot of excessive coarse grinding.

Contrary to what yepmonfire said, you SHOULD be getting a good edge from a 1k stone and if a 4k stone is not far off from the Norton fine India then I would be concerned. 4k should be a lot finer than any India stone and a 1k should be more than capable of a shaving sharp though very toothy edge. 1k should still be finer than the Norton India though.

I shouldn't say I wouldn't recommend any of it, the DMT XXC is a good lapping and grinding plate. For the stones though I would point you in the direction of something a bit better for the money such as the Shapton Glass stones. The 500 and 2k would be my recommendation along with the DMT XXC, they cut fast only need a splash of water and are very hard so getting that sharp edge is a good deal easier than with soft stones. Finish it off with some stropping and it can make any edge sharper than it needs to be.
 
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Jason B. said:
Personally, I Wouldn't buy any of it. I have not heard bad things of the Nortons but in the world of waterstones they only seem to be favored by Razor Honers. I also think going from the DMT XXC to the 220 stone makes for a lot of excessive coarse grinding.

Contrary to what yepmonfire said, you SHOULD be getting a good edge from a 1k stone and if a 4k stone is not far off from the Norton fine India then I would be concerned. 4k should be a lot finer than any India stone and a 1k should be more than capable of a shaving sharp though very toothy edge. 1k should still be finer than the Norton India though.

I shouldn't say I wouldn't recommend any of it, the DMT XXC is a good lapping and grinding plate. For the stones though I would point you in the direction of something a bit better for the money such as the Shapton Glass stones. The 500 and 2k would be my recommendation along with the DMT XXC, they cut fast only need a splash of water and are very hard so getting that sharp edge is a good deal easier than with soft stones. Finish it off with some stropping and it can make any edge sharper than it needs to be.
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I'm just stating my experience on the Norton's. They kind of do their own thing apart from most waterstones. Their grit rating is based on micro mesh and all but their 8k cuts relatively fast for its grit rating. As a set they work well, on their own I wouldn't bother, and unless someone has experience with them, I wouldn't mix and match. For example, Going from a 4k norton to an 8k or 6k pretty much anything else is a big jump.

Naniwa has some good cheap starter sets on sharpening supplies you might look at, but for $108 for the entire set including the flattening stone, it's not a bad deal.
 
Norton 4k is definitely a finer stone than an India. I cannot compare to anything like the range of stones Jason has handled.

I really do like my Nortons with exception of the 220, which I find too soft to grind quickly. The 4k is closer to other JWS 2k or so, and the 8k cuts fast, has good feedback, and works to a bright finish. They handle a lot of steels pretty well.
 
HeavyHanded said:
Norton 4k is definitely a finer stone than an India. I cannot compare to anything like the range of stones Jason has handled.

I really do like my Nortons with exception of the 220, which I find too soft to grind quickly. The 4k is closer to other JWS 2k or so, and the 8k cuts fast, has good feedback, and works to a bright finish. They handle a lot of steels pretty well.
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the 8k is the same way.
 
Jason B. said:
Personally, I Wouldn't buy any of it. I have not heard bad things of the Nortons but in the world of waterstones they only seem to be favored by Razor Honers. I also think going from the DMT XXC to the 220 stone makes for a lot of excessive coarse grinding.

Contrary to what yepmonfire said, you SHOULD be getting a good edge from a 1k stone and if a 4k stone is not far off from the Norton fine India then I would be concerned. 4k should be a lot finer than any India stone and a 1k should be more than capable of a shaving sharp though very toothy edge. 1k should still be finer than the Norton India though.

I shouldn't say I wouldn't recommend any of it, the DMT XXC is a good lapping and grinding plate. For the stones though I would point you in the direction of something a bit better for the money such as the Shapton Glass stones. The 500 and 2k would be my recommendation along with the DMT XXC, they cut fast only need a splash of water and are very hard so getting that sharp edge is a good deal easier than with soft stones. Finish it off with some stropping and it can make any edge sharper than it needs to be.
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If I have a blade that is somewhat dull, but not chipped or anything would it be better to get something in between the XXC DMT and the 500 Shapton? I've been looking on this site, specifically at their grit scale, and it looks like something like a Shapton 320 would be a good starting point if I don't really need to use the XXC. http://www.sharpeningsupplies.com/Sharpening-Stone-Grit-Chart-W21.aspx
Is this correct, or just use the XXC for dull and then keep them sharp by using the 500/2000? The jump from 100+ microns to 30 isn't too big of a jump?
 
500 might do the job, but i would go a little higher, otherwise it will take you longer to get a polished edge. 500 can still scratch pretty bad..
 
Jrmysell said:
If I have a blade that is somewhat dull, but not chipped or anything would it be better to get something in between the XXC DMT and the 500 Shapton? I've been looking on this site, specifically at their grit scale, and it looks like something like a Shapton 320 would be a good starting point if I don't really need to use the XXC. http://www.sharpeningsupplies.com/Sharpening-Stone-Grit-Chart-W21.aspx
Is this correct, or just use the XXC for dull and then keep them sharp by using the 500/2000? The jump from 100+ microns to 30 isn't too big of a jump?
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The jump from XXC to the SG500 is no issue, the SG series of stones is VERY fast which means larger jumps can be made. Personally, I use 400-800 grit waterstones all the time when going from my XXC or Atoma 140 and it works well, my customers have no complaints ;)

The XXC will be best used for lapping the waterstones, grinding out damage, and setting bevels.

The SG500 will be used for routine edge maintenance, small bevel setting needs, and when the 2k fails to bring the edge back.

The SG2000 if fine enough to finish the edge but fast enough that it can be used to do daily maintenance to keep your edge sharp. This is my common stopping point for my customers knives and my knives alike, it's a good mix of toothy and polish.
 
Jason B. said:
The jump from XXC to the SG500 is no issue, the SG series of stones is VERY fast which means larger jumps can be made. Personally, I use 400-800 grit waterstones all the time when going from my XXC or Atoma 140 and it works well, my customers have no complaints ;)

The XXC will be best used for lapping the waterstones, grinding out damage, and setting bevels.

The SG500 will be used for routine edge maintenance, small bevel setting needs, and when the 2k fails to bring the edge back.

The SG2000 if fine enough to finish the edge but fast enough that it can be used to do daily maintenance to keep your edge sharp. This is my common stopping point for my customers knives and my knives alike, it's a good mix of toothy and polish.
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For stropping after using the 2K, what abrasive should I get? I have plenty of leather as I make sheaths for knives I've recently started making, so I can make a strop.
 
I bought the wicked edge compounds, 5 micron should be the equivalant to 5000 grit. That would probably be fine. A lot of people use the green compound with great succes.
 
My go-to is 1 micron diamond, but a nice piece of horse leather bare can fairly awesome too. A good strop of compressed leather (horse or kangaroo preferably) is my preferred method of finishing an edge because it enhances it and does not alter what the stone has done like abrasive compounds.

With the shapton system there is also the 16k stone, it's rather expensive but basically replaces the need for a strop. Although, thinking of all the abrasive compound and leather I have purchased over the years the 16k's price tag doesn't look all that bad.
 
Except for major reprofiling, I use a 600 grit diamond stone (4x3 inch mounted on a wood block) and then a 1000 grit Smith's ceramic stone (not rod). Total cost about $20 and it will give you as sharp an edge as you'll ever need. If you want a polished edge, use 1500 grit emory on a paint paddle; just remember to only stroke away from the edge. No offense to anyone, but 8000 grit is just silly - that's finer than what barber's use for straight razors.

Rich

My point is the same. Unless you are planning on shaving with your knife or cutting paper thin sushi, 600,1000 and possibly 1500 grit will give an edge to do whatever 99% of people will ever need.
 
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Rich S said:
Except for major reprofiling, I use a 600 grit diamond stone (4x3 inch mounted on a wood block) and then a 1000 grit Smith's ceramic stone (not rod). Total cost about $20 and it will give you as sharp an edge as you'll ever need. If you want a polished edge, use 1500 grit emory on a paint paddle; just remember to only stroke away from the edge. No offense to anyone, but 8000 grit is just silly - that's finer than what barber's use for straight razors.

Rich
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Actually, 8000 is considered by many to be the minimum for straight razors before stropping. It's also a level of finish prefer by wood workers and professional Chef's that use Japanese cutlery. The world of cutlery is very large and has many requirements that cannot always be fulfilled by a pocket stone. Sometimes there is a want and need for more.
 
Rich S said:
Except for major reprofiling, I use a 600 grit diamond stone (4x3 inch mounted on a wood block) and then a 1000 grit Smith's ceramic stone (not rod). Total cost about $20 and it will give you as sharp an edge as you'll ever need. If you want a polished edge, use 1500 grit emory on a paint paddle; just remember to only stroke away from the edge. No offense to anyone, but 8000 grit is just silly - that's finer than what barber's use for straight razors.

Rich

My point is the same. Unless you are planning on shaving with your knife or cutting paper thin sushi, 600,1000 and possibly 1500 grit will give an edge to do whatever 99% of people will need
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I can come up with several reasons why 8k or higher for knives is desirable. The biggest being that the finer and more polished an edge is, the longer it lasts between sharpening as large teeth on an edge break off easier then a more uniform solid edge wears down. The second is that an edge doesn't even fully apex until about 4k ( https://scienceofsharp.wordpress.com/2014/04/16/the-honing-progression/). It just cuts better. Even my cheap kitchen knives are finished with 8-14k grit and there is a noticeable difference in sharpness when chopping vegetables or cutting up chicken. Of course it's not a requirement, but it is definitely worthwhile and far from silly.
 
yepimonfire said:
I can come up with several reasons why 8k or higher for knives is desirable. The biggest being that the finer and more polished an edge is, the longer it lasts between sharpening as large teeth on an edge break off easier then a more uniform solid edge wears down. The second is that an edge doesn't even fully apex until about 4k ( https://scienceofsharp.wordpress.com/2014/04/16/the-honing-progression/). It just cuts better. Even my cheap kitchen knives are finished with 8-14k grit and there is a noticeable difference in sharpness when chopping vegetables or cutting up chicken. Of course it's not a requirement, but it is definitely worthwhile and far from silly.
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That is not true.

The "teeth" of coarser edges wear at the same rate, the steel has a set wear resistance and you cannot change that.

Coarse edges are more like a serrated edge, they have more surface area to wear down before the edge becomes unusable. It's all about surface area and coarser finished edges have more of it which means they take longer to dull. That's edge retention in a nutshell.

The edge reaches a apex when the burr forms. What was said in that blog is that by 4k the edge width has reached a point where most all convexity has been removed, he also notes that there is not much improvement of the edge beyond 4k.
 
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