Sharpening the "opposite way", from spine to edge

[R.Boreal]

Sharpening the "opposite way", from spine to edge


I'll get right to it and if you want my blah-blah xtra stuff it’s at the end.

About 8-10 years ago I saw a show featuring a Samurai master creating and finishing a katana. I observed that as he sharpened the blade progressively with his many stones (in a traditional position using his arms, torso, legs and feet to hold it) he was moving along, but also away from, the sword's edge. To reiterate, the direction the master used was NOT from sharp edge toward spine. He finished the edge with directional movement from spine (thick part) towards the edge.

This reminded me of how I sharpen a field blade, like a mower. (Fig. 1) With the blade in a vise I move my directional file as shown, opposite from the way I was taught to sharpen on a stone.

So the next image I borrowed from the internet (Fig’s 2 and 3, crude arrows) show the same counter-intuitive directional approach applied to a chef's blade. Using, for example, a XX-Fine DMT Dia-Sharp 11.5” stone with maybe a bit of soap and water or just dry, I do this as shown, except I don’t use both hands. If you take a second to really understand the motion – Fig. 3 in particular took me quite awhile to be able to do consistently. I’m starting at the tip of the blade and moving as indicated, “reverse cutting” while sliding backward, pushing the length of the blade away from me. And of course a bit of rotation to follow the contour of the blade. This is further complicated by the fact that I have found the need to start (or finish if Fig.2) with an increased angle at the very tip for a sharp point, then normalize the angle almost immediately. I have found thru experience that if I don't increase the sharpening angle at the extreme tip then I end up with a dull point. I flipped one of the images vertically to indicate all this must also be done on the other side, but I mean… duh. I find it’s important to do this reverse-cutting technique both pulling toward and pushing away from me to end up with the least burr.

I then follow up with a steel (Fig. 4) that came with the Henckels set, but again, in the opposite direction most people would think. I don’t feel the need to both push and pull with the steel. I just go from bolster to tip. I used to not be such a big fan of the sharpening steel, but that was before I learned the difference betwixt a burr that feels ultra-sharp, and a very well honed, smooth edge that keeps.

Since I currently do all my sharpening without any kind of stabilizer or guide (which may change, of course) I have learned to feel the edge as well as eye the angle. I find it is critical to concentrate on how the edge of the blade feels along the stone. As it becomes sharper it changes slightly. If my angle is wrong the feel changes entirely. And I reduce pressure as the blade gets sharper, a cheap trick that kind of makes a XX-fine stone act more like a XXX. Kind of. I also do have the XXX-ultra fine DMT, but truth be told I don’t always get the best results with that one. I think it must be my technique, as I can produce a “villainous edge” on kitchen cutlery but I don’t do so great with my Benchmade’s on the ultra. A criminal edge. “Sharper than the law should allow”. Seriously, I did some internet research on modern sharpening tools, magnified edges, etc. and I might spring for that Wicked Edge Pro-Pack I . If you haven’t seen it check this out:

http://sharpeningtechniques.blogspot.com/

I love this too:
http://sharpeningmadeeasy.com/Juranitch1977Feb.htm

There’s no way I’m ever gonna do THAT freehand! I am not the Samurai Master, after all. And I must admit, when it comes time to slice lemons for my Stoli or tomatoes for the salad, I sometimes break out the Kyocera ceramic. I rarely do an edge with my stones to rival that Kyocera. Is it really worth $400 for me to be able to? You betcha! I mean maybe.

NOTES: Can't post attachments? BLEH!! Oh well...

I did search this forum for "sharpening opposite way" and "sharpening away from the edge" before I posted. I got many hits but none with that in the title. Perhaps there's a term or named technique of which I am unaware.
I just joined this forum (hello) and I wanted to write a bit, so admittedly you all have years of accumulated knowledge here that I have yet to sort thru. But I look 4ward to learn that much more. Thanks for all that, BTW.
My knowledge and technique comes from years of searching info, videos, experimentation and trial and error, and also consulting with others in the approx. 15 yrs I have been sharpening. I have a decent collection of Henckels in my block, several cleavers, maybe 3 Benchmade pockets, and several others that are either still in use or broken. Cold Steel, CRKT, etc. I have three DMT Dia-Sharp stones, X-Fine, XX-Fine and Ultra, and one old DMT with the holes in it that I never really liked at all. I also have my mom’s chef’s choice 2-stage grinder sharpener that destroyed the look of some of my pretty pocket knives (Ughhhh!!) but it does a pretty freakin’ good edge.

 

[Obsessed with Edges]

(...) "I did search this forum for "sharpening opposite way" and "sharpening away from the edge" before I posted. I got many hits but none with that in the title. Perhaps there's a term or named technique of which I am unaware." (...)

Otherwise known here on the forums as 'edge-trailing' technique, or 'edge-following', or 'backhoning'. Might also be referred to as a 'stropping stroke'.

(This is how I prefer to maintain all, and create most, of my edges, BTW. I like it. )


David

 

[bpeezer]

There’s no way I’m ever gonna do THAT freehand!

Practice, practice practice. I've been sharpening freehand for just over a year now, and I get some fairly good results.

[video=youtube;zMAdMThXbAA]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zMAdMThXbAA[/video]

 

[james terrio]

Whatever works for ya, man. Ask ten different people about sharpening and you'll get at least five different answers.

I learned to sharpen that way, as opposed to "trying to slice a little off the stone" or however the little pamphlets that came with Arkansas stones back in the 80's phrased it.

I find it easier to define the apex and develop a burr with a trailing stroke. However, lately I've been experimenting with just setting the edge bevel that way and finishing up with a "normal" edge-first motion, and I seem to spend less time chasing the tiny burr back and forth.

 

[fervens]

First off, welcome to the forums! Second, where in pa are you? I refuse to believe there are knife people in this state. And now for a couple points to make.

I rarely sharpen edge trailing anymore, (or ever to be completely honest) unless it's on a soft strop. I do use the scrubbing technique for rapid steel removal then single passes for finishing.

Try "drawfiling" next time you go to file an edge. Big difference.

Next time you try to "feel" the edge while sharpening, try to listen to it as well.

The pressure thing isn't a cheap trick. I feel it should be done whenever moving to a new stone or just finishing on a stone. It helps produce a more consistent apex as well as remove any burr between stones.

There's a lot of things to learn here with a lot of skilled sharpeners commenting. Just watch out for some ego's. They have grown a bit over the years. Not necessarily undeserved though.

 

[Revival29]

I love threads like these. They are so educational for people like me.

 

[R.Boreal]

Right right... thanks. Learned a few things right here. Oh, don't you get too excited about a PennsylTuckian with a knife... I have guns too. Hahhhhhhhh!


Also watched a great UTOOBER on paper wheels where the guy turned the grinder around and drew some guide angles on the wheels. If I can get a stupid Craftsman for $130 and the wheels for another $40 or whatever, and do it that fast (and it took him longer to raise a burr than he expected) and get them to cut a phone book like that... YEAH BABY. I have to see if I can whittle pages like that from my "hand-jobs" (ha ha!) on my Dia_Sharp stones. I don't think I get them that sharp. I also watched another toober vid where some total Psycho (I mean that in a good way) used the Wicked Edge system and taped a 2billion (whatev) grit sandpaper taped on the stones. No BS, that's an impressive system, and his quest for the Villanous Edge is kinda cool. But I'd rather record music for however many HOURS he said it would take to get the edge he wants. I will still continue to work on hand sharpening. Itz a skill and it's always valuable and a fun challenge to develop skillz. I'm gonna look up drawfiling (Tx Fervens) and try that.

Even paper wheels takes skill. But man, shaving sharp in 2 minutes? C'mon. I''M AN AMERICAN. I WANT MY HAMBURGER AND I WANT IT IMMEDIATELY!!

 

[HeavyHanded]

First off, welcome to the forums! Second, where in pa are you? I refuse to believe there are knife people in this state. And now for a couple points to make.

I rarely sharpen edge trailing anymore, (or ever to be completely honest) unless it's on a soft strop. I do use the scrubbing technique for rapid steel removal then single passes for finishing.

Try "drawfiling" next time you go to file an edge. Big difference.

Drawfiling does a great job, especially as the file size drops down and the teeth get finer.
Generally I use a leading stroke to deburr, or anytime I'm working with a hard stone (diamond plate, vitreous combination stone, ceramics) I find I get a finer edge finishing with a leading stroke - the trailing stroke on a hard, fixed abrasive is not conducive to clean burr removal in my experience. Is not until I'm using a softer waterstone, strop, loose abrasive on a lapping board of some sort, that I get better results trailing than leading. Fine sandpaper falls somewhere between, in that once I deburr with a leading stroke I can often manage a few very light trailing passes and not raise a new burr. I almost always finish with a trailing stroke no matter what I'm working on, at the very least on plain paper.

 

[fervens]

Right right... thanks. Learned a few things right here. Oh, don't you get too excited about a PennsylTuckian with a knife... I have guns too. Hahhhhhhhh!

I'm gonna look up drawfiling (Tx Fervens) and try that.

Even paper wheels takes skill. But man, shaving sharp in 2 minutes? C'mon. I''M AN AMERICAN. I WANT MY HAMBURGER AND I WANT IT IMMEDIATELY!!

nicholson_guide_to_filing_2006.pdf that should help with your filing needs.
And there are coarse water stones that will out grind those wheels. Sigma power select II 120 grit or nubatama 24 grit. Those are insanely coarse stones.
And finding a Pennsyltuckian with a gun isn't too hard, but one that enjoys a fine edge is for some reason...

Generally I use a leading stroke to deburr

When finishing an edge on a waterstone, have you tried rinsing it off, lapping it or adding a microbeveling right after the main shaping? I'm curious how much the stone slurry/metal swarf effects the finished edge vs the irregular (not flat) surface of a used waterstone.

 

[HeavyHanded]

When finishing an edge on a waterstone, have you tried rinsing it off, lapping it or adding a microbeveling right after the main shaping? I'm curious how much the stone slurry/metal swarf effects the finished edge vs the irregular (not flat) surface of a used waterstone.

Generally I find at 1k I can just manage a pass or two backhoning on a clean stone - freshly rinsed - following a clean grind and deburr with a leading stroke. Most of the time I prefer to keep my waterstones clean and wet, especially as I get close to finishing with a given stone.
On a finer polish stone 4k and up, I can just about do the entire progression with a trailing stroke and still eliminate the burr, at least on my kings and Nortons. IMHO the more slurry you have, the less burr formation you will get but the more important it becomes to finish with a trailing stroke, but only on a waterstone or similar. I have dosed silicon carbide stones with fine SiC grit powder and while it did reduce burr formation during grinding, I was unable to cleanly remove the bur with a trailing stroke, so the underlying surface plays a role too, as well as abrasive particle size.

I generally do not use microbevels.

Martin

 

[fervens]

Thanks got for details. I was asking about the micro bevel mainly fire to the possibility of the irregular stone surface our the slurry creating an unintentional convex to the edge

 

[HeavyHanded]

Thanks got for details. I was asking about the micro bevel mainly fire to the possibility of the irregular stone surface our the slurry creating an unintentional convex to the edge

I get it, and you're on the right track IMHO. Softer stones will not produce the best edge they can unless you finish with a trailing edge, and the abrasive and binder piling up in front has to have something to do with it. Have had similar issues with softer jointer stones, simply would not produce a nice leading edge even when clean and dry. None of my finishing grade waterstones will make their best edge with a leading stroke to finish. There's a cutoff point IMHO where you have to move to a leading stroke, but that all depends on the stone in question.

 

[jackknife]

Edge trailing, edge leading, small circles or back and forth scrubbing, it all works if the person doing it knows what he's doing. All that really matters is that you get two good clean bevels meeting in the middle. People over think knife sharpening too much. When I was stationed overseas, I used to watch those old Italian ladies come out on the front steps about 4 to 5 in the evening with their old almost black bladed kitchen knives. They'd sharpen them up on the stone steps using the edge trailing or stropping stroke. They were sharp enough to slice right through whatever they were preparing for supper.

It's all good. Nothing is written in stone.

Carl.

 

[HeavyHanded]

Edge trailing, edge leading, small circles or back and forth scrubbing, it all works if the person doing it knows what he's doing. All that really matters is that you get two good clean bevels meeting in the middle. People over think knife sharpening too much. When I was stationed overseas, I used to watch those old Italian ladies come out on the front steps about 4 to 5 in the evening with their old almost black bladed kitchen knives. They'd sharpen them up on the stone steps using the edge trailing or stropping stroke. They were sharp enough to slice right through whatever they were preparing for supper.

It's all good. Nothing is written in stone.

Carl.

For the most part I completely agree with your POV. When using carbon steel at low to mid 50 RC many improvised sharpening methods will produce very sharp edges. Even with some of the cheaper stainless at low RC it can be done - just sharpened up my trust Chicago cutlery utility knife (the one the wife uses most often) on a coffee cup. Hit the unglazed ring to raise a burr and remove, flipped it over and 'steeled' it on the glazed side - was sharp enough to dryshave my jawline with very little tugging. Won't hold the edge long, but is very easy to get it right back.

Its when you get into higher RC steels, or stuff with a lot of alloying/carbide elements that the improvised and or casual approach starts to break down, at least for me. At that point I can't help but notice that certain methods work better than others, especially when dealing with grinding tools made expressly for sharpening steel. Is no coincidence that 90% of the newer sharpening media started popping up a couple decades ago, weren't needed prior to that.

 

[R.Boreal]

Thanks a lot for all the years of experience put into print here. After all my years of hand sharpening using Dia-Sharp, I am still clueless as to a lot of what is mentioned here. I have to watch a drawfiling video because I'm still not sure exactly what it is. A lot of your technique advice is very basic, however, and I will employ some of it tonight and see how I do combining what I've been doing with some different motions as described above.

But truth be told I am totally stoked on paper wheels right now. I just picked up the grinder and the wheels are coming in the mail. And for $200 all told... well, I probably spent at least that on the three Dia-Sharp stones I use. Yeah, it's a grinder and not as "therpeutic" or Zen as honing on a stone. But I am really into getting the Razor Edge technique down and being able to sharpen a lot of blades in a little time. Like many of you, between my kitchen knives and pocket knives I have a lot of steel. And I my next purchase will be a machete, and then maybe a nice big fixed blade. I'd rather get all of them 97% killer at 3 mins a blade with paper wheels than 100% flawless but requiring additional months of practice and 15-30 mins per.

I have a nice .jpg I did today in Photoshop to print and glue to your grinder with 90*, 45*, 22.5* and 11.25* angles inside a circle that's about .5" shy of 8" diameter. Why can't I post attachments? Do I have to be a paying member of blade forums to post attachments? That's a beat deal.

One thing that really impressed me when I started my latest research into sharpening was Juranitch's talk about relief, and how a lot of really quality knives are not ground with adequate relief. This is also a good post I found, and it echoes many of those same thoughts:

http://forums.egullet.org/topic/26036-knife-maintenance-and-sharpening/

And I gather relief is not something you can do with paper wheels. I would need a belt sander or something more aggressive? Maybe by hand on a coarse grit stone with a guide? Of course at first I simply want to learn the Razor Edgemaking technique on the grinder and eventually work my way up to my good knives and see how they hold their edge. I would not "impose" the idea of grinding proper relief on a good blade unless I found, thru experience, that it does not hold its edge.

 

[R.Boreal]

Hey there all. I posted this question on another Paper Wheels thread, but I wanted to run it by you here as well - I'm getting a blackening on the slotted wheel. Does that mean I'm not using enough rouge?

 

[HeavyHanded]

Hey there all. I posted this question on another Paper Wheels thread, but I wanted to run it by you here as well - I'm getting a blackening on the slotted wheel. Does that mean I'm not using enough rouge?

That blackening is microscopic bits of removed steel, perfectly normal. Pretty sure there's a maintenance procedure for that - might involve scraping it off with a putty knife and re-applying, but not for awhile. Imagine you can apply the rouge over itself many times before needing to clean it off.

 

[R.Boreal]

Thanks for that HeavyHanded. Here's what Razor Sharp has to say, pretty much in line with your comment...

The slotted wheel is fine. The black is wax transfer from the gritted wheel. Won't hurt a thing. If you want to reduce it, have a paper towel draped over the edge of the workbench & wipe the blade,away from the cutting edge, on the towel before going to the slotted wheel.

Use a bit of wax on the gritted wheel, but don't completely cover up the wax. You want streaks of wax, with grit showing. Maybe touching the running grit wheel about every three to four knives, depending on how hard of steel they're made of.
--
Mike Smith
Partner
Razor Sharp Edgemaking System
Willits, CA, USA

Thought I'd add (since the paper wheels system sharpens away from the edge, it's not entirely off-topic) that I alternately feel like The HERO and a GOAT with paper wheels. Most of my blades, especially the kitchen knives (Henckels) I can put a frightening, villanous edge using paper wheels in about 30 secs. per blade. And that alone is worth the price of the system, including the $130 spent for the Craftsman grinder. This is going to save me mondo time and hand fatigue for the rest of my life. But there are stil a few old blades I have, including a busted up Van Hoy Snap-Lock and an old Berretta, that are resisting my best efforts to create that razor-ama goodness. Yeah, I've gotten them sharp, but then when I went back to do better, it was a disaster and I killed the edge. Very strange, since my angle and consistency seems to be good with other knives. So of course I'm looping (loupe) the blades to see exactly what's going on, and eventually I'll conquer those last few stubborn blades and be a GOAT NO MORE.

The Van Hoy broke a long time ago (one of the hinge pins) so it can only be used light duty now.