Sharpening very dull knives with a bevel jig?

BusyBailey

BusyBailey

Joined
Jun 19, 2015
Messages
93
Hello all, I've got a bit of a problem that you all can probably help with. I (and my family) have a large collection of VERY dull kitchen knives. This is incredibly frustrating for a knife nut and someone who has worked in a lot of kitchens because I can tell the difference.
My problem is this, I don't have the equipment to sharpen totally dull knives. All my pocket knives have maintained an edge with my turn box sharpener which is no good for full size kitchen knives with no edge. Wish I could buy a Ken Onion Worksharp but there are lots of bills between here and there.
My plan, build a file guide bevel jig that is more adjustable than normal so I can file a new secondary bevel. Sound like a plan? Any advice from you sage masters of mirrored edges?
 
I am in the process of doing just that.
I've looked at what is on the market, and settled on a design of my own.
My reason is I am opening a sharpening service in the near future, and I want a system that will last decades when used commercially.

So I set up cad drawings, and a materials list... Approx. 375.00 in metals, and hardware. Then another 250.00 in a 53 pound granite base (14"x18"x3").

I still come out under the price of the best fixture available (minus my time), and I will have what I consider to be the best sharpening station on the planet (humble to a "T")

What I am really getting at is with a lot of thought, and searching/sourcing the right materials... You can build a better fixture than you could ever buy at any given price point.

I have to say go for it. 100%
 
Why not a pick up an inexpensive coarse/fine stone and a edge guide (e.g. Montblanc Super Togeru) to assist in holding a consistent angle?
 
Coarse stone from hardware store. If any of your knives have higher Rockwell steel. the file is going to be very frustrating. Coarse stone and shim or angle guide. You can prop the stone to 15 degrees and just keep the blade parallel to the table etc.
 
BusyBailey said:
Hello all, I've got a bit of a problem that you all can probably help with. I (and my family) have a large collection of VERY dull kitchen knives. This is incredibly frustrating for a knife nut and someone who has worked in a lot of kitchens because I can tell the difference.
My problem is this, I don't have the equipment to sharpen totally dull knives. All my pocket knives have maintained an edge with my turn box sharpener which is no good for full size kitchen knives with no edge. Wish I could buy a Ken Onion Worksharp but there are lots of bills between here and there.
My plan, build a file guide bevel jig that is more adjustable than normal so I can file a new secondary bevel. Sound like a plan? Any advice from you sage masters of mirrored edges?
Click to expand...
get a big Norton Crystolon coarse/fine oil stone. their 8"x 2" works for me for blades up to 8" or so. the JUM3 is 11.5"X2.25"X1" and should work for the others.
 
If the OP has a turn box sharpener, can he not wrap a coarse wet/dry sandpaper around the rods, and use that to reprofile the knives? Seems like it would be the cheapest option, even if he has to use a bit of sandpaper.
 
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BusyBailey said:
Hello all, I've got a bit of a problem that you all can probably help with. I (and my family) have a large collection of VERY dull kitchen knives. This is incredibly frustrating for a knife nut and someone who has worked in a lot of kitchens because I can tell the difference.
My problem is this, I don't have the equipment to sharpen totally dull knives. All my pocket knives have maintained an edge with my turn box sharpener which is no good for full size kitchen knives with no edge. Wish I could buy a Ken Onion Worksharp but there are lots of bills between here and there.
My plan, build a file guide bevel jig that is more adjustable than normal so I can file a new secondary bevel. Sound like a plan? Any advice from you sage masters of mirrored edges?
Click to expand...

If you're preferring to use some type of guided or angle-helping device, over the likely 'best' solution like the bench stones otherwise recommended in this thread, here's an alternative.

Since you say you've worked a lot of kitchens, then maybe you're familiar with using a steel, or perhaps some of the 'pseudo-steel' alternatives like an oval diamond chef's 'steel'? If you're familiar with using those, a 10" or 12" oval diamond 'steel' can be used in a V-sharpener configuration (think: Sharpmaker or Turnbox) to grind new edges on your kitchen knives. I tried this with one of mine, using a 10" EZE-Lap oval diamond 'steel' on a 420HC blade (similar to most kitchen-variety stainless), and it works pretty well, and doesn't take very long either. I ground my edge to approximately 10-11°/side (measured with an angle cube), taken down from a factory edge likely around ~15°/side or a little wider. If you're thinking of building a jig for the setup anyway, just make or improvise a device to support the oval rod at the sharpening angle of your choosing, and then use it like you'd use a V-crock sharpener (Sharpmaker, Turnbox, etc). The extra length and width of the diamond oval rod, plus the obvious advantage of diamond abrasive, lends a big speed advantage over a device like a Sharpmaker, with it's smaller & narrower hones.

My first choice would be to use a bench-sized oil stone (Crystolon/SiC, 'India' stone, etc), as otherwise recommended here. It's still likely the fastest-grinding method, aside from using a powered grinder. But the above-described setup also works pretty well, if some sort of guide or jigged setup is preferred.


David
 
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Zombie411 said:
I am in the process of doing just that.
I've looked at what is on the market, and settled on a design of my own.
My reason is I am opening a sharpening service in the near future, and I want a system that will last decades when used commercially.

So I set up cad drawings, and a materials list... Approx. 375.00 in metals, and hardware. Then another 250.00 in a 53 pound granite base (14"x18"x3").

I still come out under the price of the best fixture available (minus my time), and I will have what I consider to be the best sharpening station on the planet (humble to a "T")

What I am really getting at is with a lot of thought, and searching/sourcing the right materials... You can build a better fixture than you could ever buy at any given price point.

I have to say go for it. 100%
Click to expand...

Well... not to stray off topic... but now I want to see a picture of this please... :)
 
HeavyHanded said:
Coarse stone from hardware store. If any of your knives have higher Rockwell steel. the file is going to be very frustrating. Coarse stone and shim or angle guide. You can prop the stone to 15 degrees and just keep the blade parallel to the table etc.
Click to expand...
This^^^^
Totally. Get a really coarse stone and learn to sharpen by hand and how to remove the bur. The difficult part of hand sharpening is the refining and polishing with the finer stones. What made my learning to hand sharpen slow going was not having a coarse enough stone for really dull stuff.
How coarse ? I love 120 but I supose 300 would be the highest I'd go.

To refine the edge and touch up you can just use really light pressure and let the stone get loaded up. When you need to really go at a very dull edge you can clean the stone and refresh the surface of the stone.
 
HeavyHanded said:
Coarse stone from hardware store. If any of your knives have higher Rockwell steel. the file is going to be very frustrating. Coarse stone and shim or angle guide. You can prop the stone to 15 degrees and just keep the blade parallel to the table etc.
Click to expand...

That ^
Reprofiling can be frustrating if done without powertools I find. It takes a long time and my patience has deteriorated over the years, so has the time I have at hand, so I don't like that. I use a beltsander that I prop up at the desired angle and keep the knife in question vertical. Anyway, a coarse stone is a must, Crystolon coarse, coarse diamond stones and maybe the Baryonyx Manticore are options, and there are others. For the latter I say maybe because I have not tried it out yet. Martin's idea is the way to go, better than an angle guide, wedge etc. Put the stone at the desired angle. Purely freehand takes skills if you don't want to end up with multiple facets.
 
awestib said:
That ^
Reprofiling can be frustrating if done without powertools I find. It takes a long time and my patience has deteriorated over the years, so has the time I have at hand, so I don't like that. I use a beltsander that I prop up at the desired angle and keep the knife in question vertical. Anyway, a coarse stone is a must, Crystolon coarse, coarse diamond stones and maybe the Baryonyx Manticore are options, and there are others. For the latter I say maybe because I have not tried it out yet. Martin's idea is the way to go, better than an angle guide, wedge etc. Put the stone at the desired angle. Purely freehand takes skills if you don't want to end up with multiple facets.
Click to expand...

Yes and no.
Depends on how much. If thinning a blade from 3mm down to 1.9 at the spine (or 5mm to 2.2mm) I need power grinders.
But
The other day I took a Spyderco Para2 S110V and thinned the blade behind the bevel from 0.032" down to 0.008" using a 10" DMT 220 (60 micron) stone and it took no time at all. I was surprised.

Then some small hand held DMT diamond stones from my Aligner kit to refine and polish and she was frighteningly read to go to work.
 
Sorry, a bit off topic here!
Quick update on that Manticore stone from Baryonyx that I mentioned above. I had a chance to try it out on a VG10 kitchen knife to bring the "secondary bevel" down to about 10-11 dps. It took me about 20 minutes. The bevel is now about 2.5 mm wide. I soaked the stone in water, used about 1200 gr pressure, maybe a bit more at times. No water stays on the surface for more than a few seconds but no bubbles come up when soaked either. I flushed it often. At first I thought this is not cutting at all since it felt smooth pretty much right away (glazed?). But, it cut very, very fast. I was quite amazed. It is very gritty and coarse so I would avoid hitting the apex but that made my morning - in a good way. Now off to work ...
 
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I agree with the crystolon/silicon carbide stone suggestions. I pulled the coarse one off my IM313 because it removes material quickly and was seldom used except on very dull knives. Easy enough to get it back out for use when necessary, but certainly not needed every day.

adamlau said:
Why not a pick up an inexpensive coarse/fine stone and a edge guide (e.g. Montblanc Super Togeru) to assist in holding a consistent angle?
Click to expand...

I hadn't seen this, but I like it. Thanks for putting it on my radar adam. I wish they had a couple other angles to choose from, or a 15 through 20 deg kit.
 
I think someone here sells the mutt stone. That would be pretty good for getting totally dull knives back cutting.
 
View attachment 749746 View attachment 749747 Here are a manual and power version of homemade sharpeners where the knife edge is pointed at the center of the earth and drawn across the belt/stone. These rigs are adjustable, but I keep them at 15 degrees off vertical. My stones go from 100 to 30,000. My belts go from 60 to 1200. The manual rig can be made cheaply out of wood or plastic. I made the turnbuckles out R&L threaded tie rod ends and hex bar stock. A jam nut holds the adjustment. The clevises were made out of 1"X3"X1/8" box channel which was slit after the holes were drilled. The angle of the dangle can be set to 0.1 degrees using an angle cube.
The power job also has felt and leather belts. I use both oil and water stones as well as washboards and tape covered lapping plates on the manual jig. The jig was designed to hold the 2 1/2 X 11 1/2 Nortons, but it also accommodates the 4" X 10" DMT diamond hones.
When using the power version, you have to step around the device each time you switch sides of the blade. A platen supports the belt, but if you work between the top of the platen and the upper spring loaded belt tensioning wheel, you can do slack belt grinding (convex edge).
 
Hehe...As mich as I appreciate the innovation and utilitarian features of your homemade shapening systems, I was more impressed with your Shapton GlassStone accessories which included the official pond and the DLP :)
 
I put the jig over the pond and hold the Shaptons at a 75 degree angle. Right now I have following grits: 220,500,1000, 2000,4000,8000,16000,and 30000. I use the rubber brick for lapping the stones to get knuckle clearance. I am going to try an Automa 140 on the 220 Shapton. When using the Shaptons with the jig, I spray them with water to lubricate the operation.
When using oilstones, I clean them off the jig with fresh mineral oil and squeegee the excess oil into a reservoir with a rubber kitchen spatula.
 
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