Sharpening - Wet, Dry, Why?

[GangstaEarLobe]

Hello there,

Firstly, apologies if this post is fairly lengthy. I am attempting to address a larger, more complex question with a few questions and thoughts. I am a newbie in the realm of "free hand" sharpening, so any advice is greatly appreciated!

I recently have learned the basics surrounding "free hand" sharpening (as I believe it is called) with stones. Some time ago, I bought a simple and cheap (I think aluminum oxide) sharpening stone and practiced for a little bit with some knives. Now, I am looking to buy some better stones and improve my skills. However, I am unsure as to which stones I should choose. My main problem is dealing with a question that has recently come to mind regarding choice of stones and technique: Wet vs Dry, & Why?

From my newbie perspective, "wet" stones, be they oil or water based, seem to be sort of pointless. They may feel "smoother" or nicer while sharpening, but that is because the liquid involved is acting essentially as a lubricant, resulting in less contact between the steel and the stone. This would mean that they are less effective at sharpening in comparison to a dry stone, right? It seems to me as a waste of time, and yet they seem to be so popular, why?

The pros of "wet" stones seem to lie only in two main functions they provide:
1) The ability to easily prevent the pores of the stone from becoming clogged
2) Nicer "feedback" and a "smoother" feeling

Dry stones however, again from my newbie perspective, seem far more versatile and practical. They generally seem to be more durable than most "wet" stones, require less upkeep, and would be far less likely to create as much of a mess as "wet" stones. Also, if I am working with a steel that may be more susceptible to corrosion, and I am no steel expert, I would be very hesitant to use a water stone and would much rather use a dry stone. The only downside to using a dry stone I can think of is cleaning the pores, which from the little I know, seems to be a fairly easy process.

So, as a newbie, I ask:
- Which type of stone and form of sharpening would you recommend to a beginner like myself?
- Am I correct in my assumptions? Or am I way off?
- Is one type of stone and technique (Wet/Dry) simply better than the other? Or is this more a matter of context?
- What are some good places online to look for sharpening stones and which should I look for to get the most bang for my buck according to your recommendations and advice?


Thanks so much,
GangstaEarLobe

 

[Ruari]

Which stone and why? This would previously be 'get a nice grainy oil stone and start with a cheap knife'. I would now say that you might be better off matching the sharpening stone to the knife. If you have a 'super steel' a silicone carbide stone might not be best and a diamond stone would be the better choice. I would also say that if you're really intent on sharpening, then spend some good money on a good stone, otherwise you end up with several cheap stones that never really settle down and give you the results you want.

Is wet or dry better? I think that certain types of stone do better one way or the other - Arkansas stones would be used with oil by me, a Japanese King stone with water and only a diamond stone would be used dry.

I would read and understand "The Seven Secrets of Knife Sharpening" ( https://www.bladeforums.com/threads/the-seven-secrets-of-sharpening-redux.1628756/ ) first - the same principles will be used with whatever stone you use - then select a good diamond stone or two (you already seem to prefer the idea of dry sharpening, so why fight it?) and get practicing.

 

[Ourorboros]

TL;DR - there is a reason why so many experienced sharpeners use stones with water or oil.

First of all, stones used for sharpening are called whetstones regardless of whether lubrication is being used. "Whet" means "sharpen".
The type of stone chosen has a lot to do with the steels being used and the edge you want.
If it has meaningful Vanadium content (you can find out on Google), you'll need diamond stones. Anything 4% and above for sure.

Whether or not a stone is made to be used with lubrication has little to do with the durability of the stone. Of course most diamond stones being on aluminum or steel has a lot to do with it, but they can be banged out of true.

It would take a truly miserable steel to corrode in the time it takes for even the most intricate sharpening progression - you simple dry them out and oil them up if needed.

Context matters - if a stone is meant to be used in the field, I would choose a stone that can be used dry or with water. That is a matter of convenience, however.
At home wiping up water or using a sink bridge is of no concern.

Keeping a stone from being clogged is good, btw, unless you want it to be less aggressive if you don't clean it out.

 

[Blankblank]

What steels are you planning to sharpen?

How much money are you willing to spend?

What country are you located in (for store recomendations)? Since idk where you are located, amazon is actually somewhere you can find a ton of stones. However I highly advise against buying anything there until you do some research on them first. They have a ton of low quality stuff, and unless you know what you are looking for you can get ripped off. Same with ebay.

Generally I recomend getting something coarse to do any repairs, or to quickly reshape the apex of an extremely dull knife. The less time on the stones the better. You have less chance to make a mistake, or vary your angle.

Then getting something medium at least to refine the edge, and remove the burr. Depending on your preference you can go finer. I really recommend a strop, and some kind of compound, especially for people new to freehand sharpening. If can make burr removal much easier.

For me specifically if I just wanted the most bang for my buck, and didn't care about anything else. I would get either the barionyx manticore, or american mutt (both extremely coarse) then probably a dmt coarse followed by a leather strop and 1 micron diamond spray. Those 3 can get you a very sharp edge if you know what you are doing, and it should be able to sharpen any steel you throw at it.

 

[Bill3152]

Get a 325 dmt and use it dry. You can get a very good edge with that. If the edge off this isn't sharp a finer stone won't help you. Just know that excessive pressure can damage plates.

 

[Obsessed with Edges]

If you're doing heavy grinding on a stone, the swarf buildup will be an issue for clogging, if the work is being done dry. As the stone fills with swarf, it'll slow the grinding process dramatically.

With some ductile steels like low-alloy stainless steel (420HC, 440A, etc.), the steel shavings (looking like tinsel, seen microscopically) can cling to a dry stone's surface tenaciously, UNLESS there's an adequate layer of lubrication to prevent it from clinging so hard. Oil is best for that, providing a slippery and non-evaporating layer of lubrication. Works especially well on a plated diamond hone, if you're sharpening these low-alloy steels on them. The clogging on a plated diamond hone is almost like a galling effect (metal clinging to metal) at times, which requires a lot of aggressive scrubbing to dislodge it. A dry diamond hone gets very 'slick' when it's clogged like that, and it won't even remove much steel from the least wear-resistant of blades.

Because an oil stone is used with oil, that lack of sticking of the swarf to the surface makes the stone much, much easier to wipe clean and requires less scrubbing to keep it so.

Having said the above, if you're just doing light touchup / maintenance sharpening at very delicate pressure on most stones (excluding water stones), it can be done dry without too much ill effect. Just a few passes on the stone, as needed here & there, are not a big deal. But even so, over time, the stone will still need to be periodically cleaned. And it'll be simpler to do that if the stone has regularly been lubricated in use. When I use a stone dry in this light touchup manner, I always clean it immediately after I'm done. On a plated diamond hone, a spritz of Windex and microfiber towel or a paper towel work well for that. And if I use a dedicated oil stone dry, for a few light passes, some scrubbing with liquid dish detergent, water and a toothbrush can do that sort of light cleaning of the stone.

Water stones are meant to be used wet (with water only), because the binders responsible for releasing worn grit and exposing fresh grit are water-soluble and are responsible for keeping them cutting aggressively, the way they're supposed to. If the stone were used dry, it wouldn't release worn grit to expose fresh grit, and therefore would quickly lose its aggressiveness.

Sometimes, oil or water used on a stone can improve feedback. But that's only small fraction of what it's really meant to do. It serves a real purpose, keeping a well-used stone cutting aggressively over an extended period of work. And simply making a stone feel 'slicker' or smoother when using it isn't always a beneficial thing. Part of good feedback is actually feeling the aggressiveness of the stone's grit doing it's job, which inspires confidence in the stone's ability to get the work done. A dry stone feels like that for a short while, UNTIL it starts to clog, which doesn't take very long with heavy grinding.

And the assumption a stone is less effective or less aggressive because it's wet/lubricated is a myth. They're a lot less effective if they become clogged, which happens pretty fast when used dry. The wetted surface is what keeps the swarf fluid and mobile on the surface and less prone to becoming an impediment to sharpening, and therefore makes the stone/hone more effective at its job and not less so.

 

[EngrSorenson]

You've asked a lot of questions, but I'll just let you know what works for me.

I'm a firm believer in never letting anything get harder than it has to be.
I have 4 stones from DMT extra course, course, fine and extra fine.
I also use a strop and some compound (I use the flexcut gold) for about 70% of all my knife edge maintenance.

If you wanted to save a little money, you could probably ditch the extra course and extra fine; one just saves you time in reprofiling a factory edge or removing chips, the other just provides a more refined edge.
Use them with water or not, but periodically rinse and wipe the surface.

I think some folks actually have a "sharpening hobby" rather than a knife hobby, so choose your own adventure.

(Edited to add: continuous surface DMT stones are better for knife sharpening needs, as opposed to the perforated surface).

 

[GangstaEarLobe]

What steels are you planning to sharpen?

How much money are you willing to spend?

What country are you located in (for store recomendations)? Since idk where you are located, amazon is actually somewhere you can find a ton of stones. However I highly advise against buying anything there until you do some research on them first. They have a ton of low quality stuff, and unless you know what you are looking for you can get ripped off. Same with ebay.

Generally I recomend getting something coarse to do any repairs, or to quickly reshape the apex of an extremely dull knife. The less time on the stones the better. You have less chance to make a mistake, or vary your angle.

Then getting something medium at least to refine the edge, and remove the burr. Depending on your preference you can go finer. I really recommend a strop, and some kind of compound, especially for people new to freehand sharpening. If can make burr removal much easier.

For me specifically if I just wanted the most bang for my buck, and didn't care about anything else. I would get either the barionyx manticore, or american mutt (both extremely coarse) then probably a dmt coarse followed by a leather strop and 1 micron diamond spray. Those 3 can get you a very sharp edge if you know what you are doing, and it should be able to sharpen any steel you throw at it.

For steels, I have a few older, and some cheap, knives to practice on and maintain. However, I am looking into getting a new folding knife soon with a D2 steel blade.

I am hoping to not pay 40-50 dollars, perhaps in the high 30s to low 40s for a stone. I do not know the market super well so these values could simply be wishful thinking.

My country is the United States.

 

[GangstaEarLobe]

If you're doing heavy grinding on a stone, the swarf buildup will be an issue for clogging, if the work is being done dry. As the stone fills with swarf, it'll slow the grinding process dramatically.

With some ductile steels like low-alloy stainless steel (420HC, 440A, etc.), the steel shavings (looking like tinsel, seen microscopically) can cling to a dry stone's surface tenaciously, UNLESS there's an adequate layer of lubrication to prevent it from clinging so hard. Oil is best for that, providing a slippery and non-evaporating layer of lubrication. Works especially well on a plated diamond hone, if you're sharpening these low-alloy steels on them. The clogging on a plated diamond hone is almost like a galling effect (metal clinging to metal) at times, which requires a lot of aggressive scrubbing to dislodge it. A dry diamond hone gets very 'slick' when it's clogged like that, and it won't even remove much steel from the least wear-resistant of blades.

Because an oil stone is used with oil, that lack of sticking of the swarf to the surface makes the stone much, much easier to wipe clean and requires less scrubbing to keep it so.

Having said the above, if you're just doing light touchup / maintenance sharpening at very delicate pressure on most stones (excluding water stones), it can be done dry without too much ill effect. Just a few passes on the stone, as needed here & there, are not a big deal. But even so, over time, the stone will still need to be periodically cleaned. And it'll be simpler to do that if the stone has regularly been lubricated in use. When I use a stone dry in this light touchup manner, I always clean it immediately after I'm done. On a plated diamond hone, a spritz of Windex and microfiber towel or a paper towel work well for that. And if I use a dedicated oil stone dry, for a few light passes, some scrubbing with liquid dish detergent, water and a toothbrush can do that sort of light cleaning of the stone.

Water stones are meant to be used wet (with water only), because the binders responsible for releasing worn grit and exposing fresh grit are water-soluble and are responsible for keeping them cutting aggressively, the way they're supposed to. If the stone were used dry, it wouldn't release worn grit to expose fresh grit, and therefore would quickly lose its aggressiveness.

Sometimes, oil or water used on a stone can improve feedback. But that's only small fraction of what it's really meant to do. It serves a real purpose, keeping a well-used stone cutting aggressively over an extended period of work. And simply making a stone feel 'slicker' or smoother when using it isn't always a beneficial thing. Part of good feedback is actually feeling the aggressiveness of the stone's grit doing it's job, which inspires confidence in the stone's ability to get the work done. A dry stone feels like that for a short while, UNTIL it starts to clog, which doesn't take very long with heavy grinding.

And the assumption a stone is less effective or less aggressive because it's wet/lubricated is a myth. They're a lot less effective if they become clogged, which happens pretty fast when used dry. The wetted surface is what keeps the swarf fluid and mobile on the surface and less prone to becoming an impedance to sharpening, and therefore makes the stone/hone more effective at its job and not less so.

Interesting, thank you so much for all the info and advice!

Say I were to sharpen often using oil with an oil stone, how would I go about cleaning the pores of the stone after a long period of light build-up safely without harming the stone?

 

[GangstaEarLobe]

You've asked a lot of questions, but I'll just let you know what works for me.

I'm a firm believer in never letting anything get harder than it has to be.
I have 4 stones from DMT extra course, course, fine and extra fine.
I also use a strop and some compound (I use the flexcut gold) for about 70% of all my knife edge maintenance.

If you wanted to save a little money, you could probably ditch the extra course and extra fine; one just saves you time in reprofiling a factory edge or removing chips, the other just provides a more refined edge.
Use them with water or not, but periodically rinse and wipe the surface.

I think some folks actually have a "sharpening hobby" rather than a knife hobby, so choose your own adventure.

(Edited to add: continuous surface DMT stones are better for knife sharpening needs, as opposed to the perforated surface).

Interesting, would using water with a DMT stone help prevent clogging without damaging and loosening the embedded diamonds?

 

[EngrSorenson]

Interesting, would using water with a DMT stone help prevent clogging without damaging and loosening the embedded diamonds?

Honestly, I don't know- water makes things messier, but it does seem to control the swarf build up a bit better. What I do know is that diamond stones never need to be flattened, they seem to last forever, and I've not found a steel I couldn't sharpen on one (though I'm sure there's a few problematic steels out there).

 

[Obsessed with Edges]

Interesting, thank you so much for all the info and advice!

Say I were to sharpen often using oil with an oil stone, how would I go about cleaning the pores of the stone after a long period of light build-up safely without harming the stone?

The advantage to using oil with an oilstone is, it's usually enough to simply wipe the dirty oil from the stone as it's being used (then apply clean oil), and again after you're done. A microfiber towel is great for that. If you do that regularly, you'll seldom need to do much else. You can apply a little bit of clean oil to the stone, rub it around on the surface a bit to 'float' the swarf on the stone, and then wipe it off. This works because the oil actually suspends the swarf above the surface for some time - works much better than water does in this regard, in which the swarf just sinks quickly into the pores of the stone.

For times when it might need a little more cleaning, I use dish soap & water, and scrub with a stiff, plastic-bristled brush (I use an old toothbrush). The dish soap does a pretty good job with the oil itself, and the scrubbing is mainly to dislodge most of the deposited swarf.

If an oil stone is long-neglected and very clogged, Bar Keepers Friend powder, mixed to a paste with water, can be used to scrub the stone. The oxalic acid in the BKF literally dissolves the iron swarf - so a lot of the work doesn't even involve heavy scrubbing, but instead lets the acid do most of the job. Rinse it off thoroughly afterward & maybe give it the dish soap & water bath again.

 

[GangstaEarLobe]

Honestly, I don't know- water makes things messier, but it does seem to control the swarf build up a bit better. What I do know is that diamond stones never need to be flattened, they seem to last forever, and I've not found a steel I couldn't sharpen on one (though I'm sure there's a few problematic steels out there).

Interesting, thank you!

 

[GangstaEarLobe]

The advantage to using oil with an oilstone is, it's usually enough to simply wipe the dirty oil from the stone as it's being used (then apply clean oil), and again after you're done. A microfiber towel is great for that. If you do that regularly, you'll seldom need to do much else. You can apply a little bit of clean oil to the stone, rub it around on the surface a bit to 'float' the swarf on the stone, and then wipe it off. This works because the oil actually suspends the swarf above the surface for some time - works much better than water does in this regard, in which the swarf just sinks quickly into the pores of the stone.

For times when it might need a little more cleaning, I use dish soap & water, and scrub with a stiff, plastic-bristled brush (I use an old toothbrush). The dish soap does a pretty good job with the oil itself, and the scrubbing is mainly to dislodge most of the deposited swarf.

If an oil stone is long-neglected and very clogged, Bar Keepers Friend powder, mixed to a paste with water, can be used to scrub the stone. The oxalic acid in the BKF literally dissolves the iron swarf - so a lot of the work doesn't even involve heavy scrubbing, but instead lets the acid do most of the job. Rinse it off thoroughly afterward & maybe give it the dish soap & water bath again.

Wonderful, thank you!

 

[Triple_D]

Interesting, would using water with a DMT stone help prevent clogging without damaging and loosening the embedded diamonds?

I use the DMT DuoSharp diamond plates (the kind that looks like it has a bunch of holes in it) for sharpening, and don't have any problems with clogging, or diamonds coming loose. For a quick touch up, I will often use them dry, or perhaps use a dry, Spyderco ceramic stone. And sometimes, I only use a strop for a quick touch-up. It sort of depends on my mood.

But then there are times I need to do some "serious" sharpening when I pick-up a new (used) old hand plane or some chisels, and have to start out by making sure the back of the blade is completely flat. That takes a course diamond plate, and a lot of time. For those occasions, I use Windex for a lubricant. It's quite handy, and it only takes a couple of squirts to keep the diamond plate wet. It works very well, plus has the added advantage of actually "cleaning" (for lack of a better word) the stone at the same time. When finished, I just rinse them off with a hose. Of course, I will finish up with a strop.

YMMV.

 

[Easyrider]

I sharpen dry. i am a big fan of Spyderco ceramic benchstones ad their Sharpmaker system. Ceramics used dry are mess free and easy to maintain with some scouring powder and a green scotchbrite pad.

It works for me.

 

[EngrSorenson]

It's quite handy, and it only takes a couple of squirts to keep the diamond plate wet.

Paul Sellers does the same thing- I haven’t tried it personally, but if Mr. Sellers does it you can take it to the bank that it works.

 

[Triple_D]

Paul Sellers does the same thing- I haven’t tried it personally, but if Mr. Sellers does it you can take it to the bank that it works.

That's probably where I got the idea. It works great, and I've seen other woodworkers use that method, too.

I watch Paul Sellers' videos all the time, and can only dream about being as fine a craftsman, as he is.

 

[GangstaEarLobe]

Thank you all so much! Your advice and thoughts have been enlightening and greatly helpful!

 

[3D Anvil]

I keep a spray bottle filled with water and 4-5 drops of dish washing liquid that I use with pretty much all my stones and plates. A lot of knife sharpeners use the water/soap mix with good success.