Sharpening, what am i doing wron>

G

Garreth

Joined
Nov 4, 2013
Messages
57
Alright, i have a sharpening problem.

I just got a brand new zt 350, after stropping it shaves hair. All the other knives i own i can get sharp but not shaving sharp. I brought it down to 2 possible reasons.

1. Angle
2. Me just not putting enough work in.

You see, i don't want to grind to much steel away. I generally go about sharpening in the following way and get a good paper cutting working edge.

I bring the shoulder down a bit with the sharp maker using the 30 degree setting. I micro bevel at 40 degrees. Then i strop.
Gets me to a good paper slicing edge, but not hair shaving.

Maintenance on the go is done with a small stone and a small strop block.
When i get home i give it like 20 passes on the 30 degree and 10 more on 40 degree with the sharpmaker. I think of this as maintenance.

Now, what should i do to get a good hair shaving edge, keep in mind. The Zt only took some stropping and voila a razor edge. This made me realize that i must be doing something wrong. So far live seen s30v and 1095 getting the most sharp. The grip i'm talking about is 154cm.
 
You need to make sure the sharpmaker is actually hitting the edge of the blade. Then you use the coarse grit to get the paper cutting edge. Once there, you can use the fine stone and strop to get a shaving sharp edge. If you take the shoulder down, but not all the way to the edge, then your micro bevel at 40 degrees might not be doing enough. The angle should take care of itself, but you have to put the work into actually getting a uniform bevel, which can be difficult with the stock stones.

I have had great results with the sharpmaker, but the Diamond stones are definitely worth a look if you find yourself reprofiling every new knife.

Just my thoughts. Keep practicing and you will get there
 
Check out the diamond stones for the SM. Mine will get here tomorrow. I've been having issues with the SM but realized I need to reprofile my knives to 30 and do a 40 microbevel. From the factory the 40 was hitting the edge on one side and the shoulder on the other.
 
Just a thought from an old man. You may be over thinking the sharpening
stuff. I've found that shaving sharp generally doesn't hold an edge well
for routine knife use. How often are you going to shave with your knife?
If it will cleanly cut paper, that's generally quite good enough IMHO for
general usage. I do prefer a 30 degree bevel, but I sharpen by hand
and have for 60+ years. Just the musings of an old guy. No intent to
offend anyone.
Rich S
 
Rich S said:
Just a thought from an old man. You may be over thinking the sharpening
stuff. I've found that shaving sharp generally doesn't hold an edge well
for routine knife use. How often are you going to shave with your knife?
If it will cleanly cut paper, that's generally quite good enough IMHO for
general usage. I do prefer a 30 degree bevel, but I sharpen by hand
and have for 60+ years. Just the musings of an old guy. No intent to
offend anyone.
Rich S
Click to expand...

I gotta agree with Rich.

What you do with your knife on a day to day basis will have a great deal to do with what kind of edge you should have. If you're a barber and shaving people, then you need a shaving edge. If you work in the trades, and you cut duct tape, strip wire for electrical connections, or work in an office and need to open the boxes the UPS and FEDEX drivers drop off, then a toothy edge that handles cardboard well is a better bet. Don't get too hung on on micro angles and shaving. Too many gadgets don't have the versatility to adjust to whatever angle the factory put on it. A couple minutes on a stone free hand should touch up any knife with a little practice.
 
Garreth said:
Alright, i have a sharpening problem.

I just got a brand new zt 350, after stropping it shaves hair. All the other knives i own i can get sharp but not shaving sharp. I brought it down to 2 possible reasons.

1. Angle
2. Me just not putting enough work in.

(...)

Now, what should i do to get a good hair shaving edge, keep in mind. The Zt only took some stropping and voila a razor edge. This made me realize that i must be doing something wrong. So far live seen s30v and 1095 getting the most sharp. The grip i'm talking about is 154cm.
Click to expand...

A well-executed and EDC-capable 30°-40° edge will shave some hair (at least); you're likely seeing proof of this with your ZT, as you've described it. The most common reasons it won't, most of the time, are:

  • the angle isn't perfectly maintained during sharpening (which effectively rounds off the apex), or...

  • the apex isn't completed to a crisp, straight-line intersection of the two opposing bevels.
Most who are just starting out learning the sharpening process will likely have issues with each of these, in being a little sloppy about angle control, and stopping short of fully apexing the edge.

The most straightforward way to hammer the point home, in terms of how important maintaining the angle is, and the difference it makes, would be to use (at least once) a guided honing setup to create as near a perfect V-edge as possible. So long as the user makes sure to do the 2nd part (fully apexing), the finished edge's sharpness will likely amaze the newcomer.

Now having said that, it's still possible to get a hair-shaving edge with bevels that aren't perfectly flat; 99% of accomplished 'expert' sharpeners are doing that anyway. The key is, one must protect the apex as it's being created and refined, and avoid the gross errors in angle control or pressure that will otherwise destroy good work already done. Some variation in angle is fine, so long as the variation affects only the shape of the bevels behind the apex, and doesn't 'roll into' the apex itself, thereby rounding it off or scrubbing it away.

I'll agree with previous comments, in that very, very thin shaving edges, ala true razors at edge angles of 15-17° inclusive, won't be of much use for EDC knife tasks. But that's more a limitation of the edge angle (much too thin to be durable for anything but shaving), and not an issue of sharpness at the apex. As I mentioned, it's still possible to shave at least a few hairs at much broader angles, up to and including the 'normal' edges used for EDC knives (30-40° inclusive). Beyond this, the hardness and wear-resistance of the steel itself will determine how durable the shaving edge will be, and how useful the edge will continue to be after the shaving sharpness goes away. It's perfectly OK to sharpen an EDC blade to shave-worthy performance, in making it ready for work; but the shaving sharpness shouldn't be the only goal in determining how useful the knife will be.


David
 
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OwE - David thanks for taking the time to remind, at least myself, of the importance in how you approach sharpening.

Sometimes I forget that shaving sharp is not usually the best goal. For my "normal" uses: going after fatwood, cutting zip ties and the like, packing tape, cardboard, caulk, etc., shaving sharp or trying to approach shaving sharp is not the best goal. I sometimes find myself "getting lost" and continuing the sharpening process when I have already sharpened an edge as well as I need it to be sharp.
 
If you can't shave hair off your arm or hand after the Medium rod corners, keep going. The apex of the edge isn't formed yet. Stropping should not be necessary to move beyond paper slicing sharpness.
 
jacksterp said:
OwE - David thanks for taking the time to remind, at least myself, of the importance in how you approach sharpening.

Sometimes I forget that shaving sharp is not usually the best goal. For my "normal" uses: going after fatwood, cutting zip ties and the like, packing tape, cardboard, caulk, etc., shaving sharp or trying to approach shaving sharp is not the best goal. I sometimes find myself "getting lost" and continuing the sharpening process when I have already sharpened an edge as well as I need it to be sharp.
Click to expand...

Most of us will never actually need a shaving-sharp edge for EDC knife uses. But, the main justification I see, for deliberately pursuing shaving sharpness (regardless of edge angle) is that it proves to me that I've taken the edge as far as it can reasonably go with the tools I have. I never have the lingering question in my mind, 'did I really finish this?', if I can see the edge is shaving hair (or popping hairs, tree-topping, etc), and holding up reasonably well in doing so, which eliminates the possibility of a sharp but weak burr mimicking a sharp edge. It's a very good indicator of good work done and a benchmark to test one's skills by. Also much easier to attain as one's abilities grow; sort of the 'icing on the cake' of an otherwise great working edge. In other words, when I see it popping hairs and slicing or push-cutting paper and doing some other relatively light cutting tasks consistently without diminishing noticeably, life is good and I'm very happy. :D

(...but not a big deal if I'm just trying to get a cheap paring knife to slice a tomato for my sandwich. ;))


David
 
Rich S said:
Just a thought from an old man. You may be over thinking the sharpening
stuff. I've found that shaving sharp generally doesn't hold an edge well
for routine knife use. How often are you going to shave with your knife?
If it will cleanly cut paper, that's generally quite good enough IMHO for
general usage. I do prefer a 30 degree bevel, but I sharpen by hand
and have for 60+ years. Just the musings of an old guy. No intent to
offend anyone.
Rich S
Click to expand...

Rich, you probably have more experience than the rest of us put together. Thanks for sharing your insight. And if by doing this you "offended" anyone, they will either get over it or die offended! Thanks.
 
Garreth said:
Alright, i have a sharpening problem.


Now, what should i do to get a good hair shaving edge, keep in mind. The Zt only took some stropping and voila a razor edge. This made me realize that i must be doing something wrong. So far live seen s30v and 1095 getting the most sharp. The grip i'm talking about is 154cm.
Click to expand...

There are a couple of things to be aware of here.

First, the Griptillains are somewhat notorious for having an obtuse edge from the factory, so the Sharpmaker is likely not hitting the edge even with it's 40 degree inclusive setting. If you have not done so, mark the edge with magic marker and make a few swipes to see if the chosen Sharpmaker setting is actually getting to the edge. If not, you'll need to use the Sharpmaker stones freehand to match the bevel you have, or rebevel the edge to match the Sharpmaker.

You can rebevel with just the corners of the brown rods, but be prepared for this to take some time. If you have a coarser stone, you can use that. With the Sharpmaker, just start using the 30 degree setting. As you take off metal, the more obtuse bevel will get smaller and smaller. When you can just barely see it, switch to the 40 degree setting. Sharpen here with alternating passes and light pressure (maybe a pound or so) until you get an edge that will easily slice paper and roughly shave your arm or leg. Then progress through the Sharpmaker steps to the fine white flats. Using alternate passes will prevent the formation of a large and tenacious burr. This is not the most efficient way, but you will get there eventually, like working on it a little every night for a week or more.

If you have a coarser stone, approximate the 15 degree setting as best you can, and then when the old edge is just barely visible, switch to the Sharpmaker. I have rebeveled using just the Sharpmaker, and it took some real time. I may try it again just to say I did it, but it's not for the impatient.
 
If the edge cuts paper without snagging,thats good enough for me.I do not use my pocket knives to shave:D
 
I wish I could follow Rich's advice. For me it's like an OCD issue & I want my EDC scary sharp at the beginning of each day.
 
Obsessed with Edges said:
A well-executed and EDC-capable 30°-40° edge will shave some hair (at least); you're likely seeing proof of this with your ZT, as you've described it. The most common reasons it won't, most of the time, are:

  • the angle isn't perfectly maintained during sharpening (which effectively rounds off the apex), or...

  • the apex isn't completed to a crisp, straight-line intersection of the two opposing bevels.
Most who are just starting out learning the sharpening process will likely have issues with each of these, in being a little sloppy about angle control, and stopping short of fully apexing the edge.

The most straightforward way to hammer the point home, in terms of how important maintaining the angle is, and the difference it makes, would be to use (at least once) a guided honing setup to create as near a perfect V-edge as possible. So long as the user makes sure to do the 2nd part (fully apexing), the finished edge's sharpness will likely amaze the newcomer.

Now having said that, it's still possible to get a hair-shaving edge with bevels that aren't perfectly flat; 99% of accomplished 'expert' sharpeners are doing that anyway. The key is, one must protect the apex as it's being created and refined, and avoid the gross errors in angle control or pressure that will otherwise destroy good work already done. Some variation in angle is fine, so long as the variation affects only the shape of the bevels behind the apex, and doesn't 'roll into' the apex itself, thereby rounding it off or scrubbing it away.

I'll agree with previous comments, in that very, very thin shaving edges, ala true razors at edge angles of 15-17° inclusive, won't be of much use for EDC knife tasks. But that's more a limitation of the edge angle (much too thin to be durable for anything but shaving), and not an issue of sharpness at the apex. As I mentioned, it's still possible to shave at least a few hairs at much broader angles, up to and including the 'normal' edges used for EDC knives (30-40° inclusive). Beyond this, the hardness and wear-resistance of the steel itself will determine how durable the shaving edge will be, and how useful the edge will continue to be after the shaving sharpness goes away. It's perfectly OK to sharpen an EDC blade to shave-worthy performance, in making it ready for work; but the shaving sharpness shouldn't be the only goal in determining how useful the knife will be.


David
Click to expand...

I REALLY find this to be very applicable for where I currently am at in my sharpening ability and it perfectly explains why and what I struggle with. I think I just need more practice and it will come with time. Thank you very much for putting into words what I have been trying to figure out in my head for a little bit now. It makes more sense to me now and will help me greatly in improving my skill more rapidly.
 
Remember also, that shaving arm hair is not a consistant test. Sometimes it is easier to shave than others. Try shaving arm hair after a shower for example. It is much easier than it is at other times.
 
ARundrpillow said:
I REALLY find this to be very applicable for where I currently am at in my sharpening ability and it perfectly explains why and what I struggle with. I think I just need more practice and it will come with time. Thank you very much for putting into words what I have been trying to figure out in my head for a little bit now. It makes more sense to me now and will help me greatly in improving my skill more rapidly.
Click to expand...

The two problem issues I described (inconsistent angle control & stopping short of full apex) are exactly the issues I also struggled with for YEARS; I've since seen the same issues described by countless others here on BF, so I knew I wasn't alone. There's definitely a pattern there, of the same obstacles getting in the way, time after time. :)

I've since found great help from the experts here on BF, in getting past those troubles, or at least learning how to recognize and deal with them. I'm sure you will too, if you hang around and keep reading & learning. It'll come. :thumbup:


David
 
Obsessed with Edges said:
The two problem issues I described (inconsistent angle control & stopping short of full apex) are exactly the issues I also struggled with for YEARS; I've since seen the same issues described by countless others here on BF, so I knew I wasn't alone. There's definitely a pattern there, of the same obstacles getting in the way, time after time. :)

I've since found great help from the experts here on BF, in getting past those troubles, or at least learning how to recognize and deal with them. I'm sure you will too, if you hang around and keep reading & learning. It'll come. :thumbup:


David
Click to expand...

Thanks for sharing, I too struggle with these issues. I have learned A LOT from the members here on BFs.
 
Thank you all for your very insightfull replies. I agree completely that schaving Sharp has no edc use. However i am trying to get schaving Sharp just to prove to myself that it is indeed possible. So far it has been a sharpening unicorn for me!

The factory angle on my grip is not even and very obtuse on one side. I will continue to work on it this week. The medium rods are slow so i might consider doing some work by hand on a diamond stone. I'm still practicing handsharpening so i'm a bit reluctant to put the knife to this agressieve stone (large fallkniven benchstone)
 
Obsessed with Edges said:
The two problem issues I described (inconsistent angle control & stopping short of full apex) are exactly the issues I also struggled with for YEARS; I've since seen the same issues described by countless others here on BF, so I knew I wasn't alone. There's definitely a pattern there, of the same obstacles getting in the way, time after time. :)

I've since found great help from the experts here on BF, in getting past those troubles, or at least learning how to recognize and deal with them. I'm sure you will too, if you hang around and keep reading & learning. It'll come. :thumbup:


David
Click to expand...

David,

Exactly the issues that I keep facing too, thinking it's there but when looked under 15x loupe, the factory grind is still there near apex :eek:

To OP,

Not wanting to waste steel is healthy, but in the learning process, it should be put aside. I faced above issue because of that too (hanging in the back of my mind). Keep working at it :thumbup:
 
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Shaving sharp sure is being thrown around here loosely.

Shaving sharp too much for EDC? Your kidding right?

Shaving sharp can be had at 120 grit or 120,000 grit, the only difference is how refined the edge is.

If you can't shave a few arm hairs then you probably have a pretty dull knife.
 
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