Sharpening, what am I doing wrong?

Joined
Apr 30, 2018
Messages
102
I have always sharpened my knives freehand. For my use, usually just use my fine diamond stone, a DMT single sided folder, then move to the spyderco ceramic, and finish off stropping in the side of my workboot. Has always given me a pretty sharp edge.

But I wanted to try something different. So I bought a DMT double sided folder, extra fine and extra extra fine. I wanted to see how refined I could get the edge. So I did my usual and got my mini grip hair shaving sharp. Then moved over to the extra fine for a bit befor going to the XXfine. While my knife still shaves hair, it doesnt seem to shave as easily as it did before. And no matter how much I work it, it doesnt seem to get any sharper. What gives?
 
Lmao dude I know how you feel!! I posted a thread a while back on the same subject. I’ll try find the thread and link it. Best suggestion out of the incredible feedback I got was make abso-freaking-lutely sure you feel a burr all the way down the blade on both sides. Then came the awesome little gem. Buy a deburring block!!!!!! Use it in between each grit level. Good luck man!!
 
It gets interesting whenever you change a variable in the process. When I first got a strop, it messed things up for a while until I figured out what I was doing wrong (the angle was too steep).

I would suggest 2 things:
  • The sharpie trick. Color the edge between each step in the process. You may be holding one of the stones a bit differently, causing you to not be consistent with the different steps.
  • Ask in the Maintenance, Tinkering & Embellishment forum. It is the go to place for this sort of question.
Good luck
 
Should I change my sharpening method? I have heard of sharpening one side until you feel a bur, then go to the other side, or something like that. But I have always just run 1 pas on each side, flipping every stroke. Its always worked well for me that way. IM beginning to wonder if going beyond sharp and getting to SHARP requires a fifferent method.
 
There’s probably a need for breaking in. I read and experience the EEF especially needs breaking in. Initially it might result in more ragged finish.
The EF not so much.

Is your Fine continuous surface? Diafold is interrupted and getting used to it (including adjusting lighter pressure) is important.

The sharpie trick might give you other clues on whether you apex the edge fully.
 
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It gets interesting whenever you change a variable in the process. When I first got a strop, it messed things up for a while until I figured out what I was doing wrong (the angle was too steep).

I would suggest 2 things:
  • The sharpie trick. Color the edge between each step in the process. You may be holding one of the stones a bit differently, causing you to not be consistent with the different steps.
  • Ask in the Maintenance, Tinkering & Embellishment forum. It is the go to place for this sort of question.
Good luck

I forgot to mention the sharpie trick!!
Here’s the thread:

https://www.bladeforums.com/threads/i-am-in-desperate-need-of-help.1569021/
 
Hi,
I have always sharpened my knives freehand. For my use, usually just use my fine diamond stone, a DMT single sided folder, then move to the spyderco ceramic, and finish off stropping in the side of my workboot. Has always given me a pretty sharp edge.

But I wanted to try something different. So I bought a DMT double sided folder, extra fine and extra extra fine. I wanted to see how refined I could get the edge. So I did my usual and got my mini grip hair shaving sharp. Then moved over to the extra fine for a bit befor going to the XXfine. While my knife still shaves hair, it doesnt seem to shave as easily as it did before. And no matter how much I work it, it doesnt seem to get any sharper. What gives?
Hi,
What sharpening angle are you using?
Have you checked with a marker if you're hitting your edge angle?
How sharp is your shaving in terms of cutting paper? Can you slice printer paper/magazine paper/newspaper/phonebook paper? Can you push cut any of these papers at 90 degrees in all 3 axis?
Do you also strop on your boots after the fine stones?

There are only two possibilities,
1) you've got a burr,
in which case double the angle and cut the burr off with 2 short alternating passes per side
then check sharpness, repeat once or twice ,
if it works it should be instant,
if it doesn't work then

2) shaping was incomplete, knife was not apexed, the bevels werent made to meet, you've still got a flat, no burr on both sides was created

could be the coarse stone work wasn't really done for whatever reason,
stopped too soon before moving onto next stone
due to uneven bevels, one side reached the middle while the other didnt, and on subsequent stones this burr that has been shaving your arm hair thickened up and now shaves less well
cause you don't got burr shaving you no more

whatever the cause, solution is go back to a coarser stone and do more strokes, cause the fine stones are too fine (too slow) to catch up and do the work of the coarser stone

not being able to push cut paper means you're under shaped , or burr is folded over
alternating strokes should stand up burr, then not being able to push cut paper means you're definitely under shaped, needs more strokes to finish

I suggest you skip stropping on your boot until you figure out stones ,
most likely alll it did was stand up the coarse burr from your coarse stones, which would shave
the coarse burr from
but then since the burr from your fine stones is smaller, won't catch/trap as much hair as a bigger burr, so it feels less shavey

or it could be you've got mud/rocks on your boot dulling your blade :)

Should I change my sharpening method? I have heard of sharpening one side until you feel a bur, then go to the other side, or something like that. But I have always just run 1 pas on each side, flipping every stroke. Its always worked well for me that way. IM beginning to wonder if going beyond sharp and getting to SHARP requires a fifferent method.
Hi,
For the shaping stage of sharpening, for raising a burr, it doesn't matter what kind of stroke you use. If alternating strokes for the shaping stage is fast enough for you, as opposed to scrubbing strokes, there nothing wrong with that.

For the final sharpness setting stage, for standing a burr up, cutting a burr off and creating a micro bevel , the last 20-30 alternating passes per side, you're supposed to alternate strokes .

You should do the same between switching stones if you've got a noticable big burr, alternate, double the angle, cut it off, light force as much under 100 grams as you can.




Buy a deburring block!!!!!! Use it in between each grit level. Good luck man!!
Hi,
So you're saying, use sharpening stone to create burr, then buy something else to remove burr?
Hmm, make burr on sharpening stone, then use something else to remove burr.
Cut metal from knife with a sharpening stone and create a burr, then use something else to remove burr.
Maybe there is a way to use the thing that created the burr to remove the burr?
I think it is called high angle deburring or double angle deburring.
I'm reading that as I'm typing and that just sounds weird ... is it a sharpening stone or deburring stone?
:D
 
I have always sharpened my knives freehand. For my use, usually just use my fine diamond stone, a DMT single sided folder, then move to the spyderco ceramic, and finish off stropping in the side of my workboot. Has always given me a pretty sharp edge.

But I wanted to try something different. So I bought a DMT double sided folder, extra fine and extra extra fine. I wanted to see how refined I could get the edge. So I did my usual and got my mini grip hair shaving sharp. Then moved over to the extra fine for a bit befor going to the XXfine. While my knife still shaves hair, it doesnt seem to shave as easily as it did before. And no matter how much I work it, it doesnt seem to get any sharper. What gives?

The closer you get to finishing, especially at EF/EEF levels, the lighter the touch needs to be as you progress. A tad too-heavy touch can undo anything accomplished in the prior stage. The edge will become extremely fine at these grit levels, so it doesn't take more than one errant pass at either too-heavy pressure or too-steep an angle to degrade how it's shaving. There's also a risk in just going too far, with too many passes at this stage. Because the edge is already very fine, it doesn't take much to effectively (or literally) scrub it away. Knowing when to STOP is important, as soon as you see improvement over the previous stage. You can usually refine it further, after this, with some light stropping on bare leather or denim.

My rule of thumb for use of pressure at the finishing stages is to make each pass literally as if I were gently brushing dust off the hone with the edge of the blade. No heavier than that. Check how it's cutting/shaving very frequently at this stage, maybe every pass or two.
 
Gonna play with it some more today, taking some advice here into account. Im gonna try the sharpie, but im thinking after 25 years of hand sharpening, the muscle memory would be good enough to hit the same angle repeatedly. Either way, its gonna be fun to physically see if thats true or not! I couldnt tell you the angle since its free hand. But i have considered getting a wicked edge sharpener just to have more control and precision for my hobby work.

It appears someone moved my post. I didnt see this forum until it was suggested above, so to whoever moved it, thank you. As i said in my first post, im still new here and trying to learn where everything is.
 
Hi,

Hi,
What sharpening angle are you using?
Have you checked with a marker if you're hitting your edge angle?
How sharp is your shaving in terms of cutting paper? Can you slice printer paper/magazine paper/newspaper/phonebook paper? Can you push cut any of these papers at 90 degrees in all 3 axis?
Do you also strop on your boots after the fine stones?

There are only two possibilities,
1) you've got a burr,
in which case double the angle and cut the burr off with 2 short alternating passes per side
then check sharpness, repeat once or twice ,
if it works it should be instant,
if it doesn't work then

2) shaping was incomplete, knife was not apexed, the bevels werent made to meet, you've still got a flat, no burr on both sides was created

could be the coarse stone work wasn't really done for whatever reason,
stopped too soon before moving onto next stone
due to uneven bevels, one side reached the middle while the other didnt, and on subsequent stones this burr that has been shaving your arm hair thickened up and now shaves less well
cause you don't got burr shaving you no more

whatever the cause, solution is go back to a coarser stone and do more strokes, cause the fine stones are too fine (too slow) to catch up and do the work of the coarser stone

not being able to push cut paper means you're under shaped , or burr is folded over
alternating strokes should stand up burr, then not being able to push cut paper means you're definitely under shaped, needs more strokes to finish

I suggest you skip stropping on your boot until you figure out stones ,
most likely alll it did was stand up the coarse burr from your coarse stones, which would shave
the coarse burr from
but then since the burr from your fine stones is smaller, won't catch/trap as much hair as a bigger burr, so it feels less shavey

or it could be you've got mud/rocks on your boot dulling your blade :)


Hi,
For the shaping stage of sharpening, for raising a burr, it doesn't matter what kind of stroke you use. If alternating strokes for the shaping stage is fast enough for you, as opposed to scrubbing strokes, there nothing wrong with that.

For the final sharpness setting stage, for standing a burr up, cutting a burr off and creating a micro bevel , the last 20-30 alternating passes per side, you're supposed to alternate strokes .

You should do the same between switching stones if you've got a noticable big burr, alternate, double the angle, cut it off, light force as much under 100 grams as you can.





Hi,
So you're saying, use sharpening stone to create burr, then buy something else to remove burr?
Hmm, make burr on sharpening stone, then use something else to remove burr.
Cut metal from knife with a sharpening stone and create a burr, then use something else to remove burr.
Maybe there is a way to use the thing that created the burr to remove the burr?
I think it is called high angle deburring or double angle deburring.
I'm reading that as I'm typing and that just sounds weird ... is it a sharpening stone or deburring stone?
:D

It is not a stone, I believe it is a svelt block. I agree that the birr should be massaged out if possible. This thing is awesome. If you have worked up a burr on both sides and cannot seem to get rid of the wire edge if you lighly run it over the block it pulls it off!! (without dulling your edge like running it on a wooden board) I would have never thought of such a thing, it was reccomended to me in a similar thread i had posted. Check it outonline man its usefull even if you are very good at sharpening.
 
I have always sharpened my knives freehand. For my use, usually just use my fine diamond stone, a DMT single sided folder, then move to the spyderco ceramic, and finish off stropping in the side of my workboot. Has always given me a pretty sharp edge.

But I wanted to try something different. So I bought a DMT double sided folder, extra fine and extra extra fine. I wanted to see how refined I could get the edge. So I did my usual and got my mini grip hair shaving sharp. Then moved over to the extra fine for a bit befor going to the XXfine. While my knife still shaves hair, it doesnt seem to shave as easily as it did before. And no matter how much I work it, it doesnt seem to get any sharper. What gives?

Use an Edge Pro Apex
Ditch the diamonds unless you are forced to sharpen High Vanadium Steel.
Use appropriate stones for the steel you are sharpening; the stock stones or the Shapton Glass stones for the Edge Pro.

You simply will not believe what you have been missing.

I have always sharpened my knives freehand.
yeeeah . . . don't do that.
 
yeeeah . . . don't do that.


Ever since the first cutting tool was crafted from a rock, people have been hand sharpening their blades. Samurai, who were known for their extremely sharp swords, hand sharpened their blades. Some of the sharpest blades in the world were hand-sharpened.

Im not saying that new tools such as the edge pro or the wicked edge cant produce stellar results and make sharpening much faster, Im looking into getting a sharpening system myself, but what Im saying is, dont let hand sharpening become a lost art. I take pride in the fact that I can hand sharpen a knife with extreme results, even though Im always looking to improve myself. As I said in my first post, I work in the oilfield, but I am also and outdoors kind of guy, hunting and fishing. I cant tell you how many people I have run across that simply can not hand sharpen a knife without either scratching the shit out of their blade, or making the edge worse than it was before the tried. I get asked all the time at work to sharpen peoples knives when they see how sharp and clean the edge is on my knife because they just dont know how. I wasnt allowed to carry a knife until I learned to properly sharpen one. I learned on various skinning knives from Old Timer and Uncle Henry and Sod Busters and other Case knives of my papaw. When I got good enough, my daddy and papaw let me sharpen their really good knives. Its a skill that has been passed on to me from my dad, to him from his dad, and beyond. And my son will learn to sharpen a knife before I allow him to own one too.

I will be investing in a system, but Ill always hand sharpen the knives that I actually use. Like I said, dont let it become a lost art, or encourage it for that matter.

http://imgur.com/gallery/HACYDV6
 
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Here's what you are doing wrong: If all you have going on the weekends is setting at home rubbing your sword with a stone that explains a lot. All of you guys need to find a girl, really. You are totally pitiful. When I showed my girl friends your blogs and posts, they couldn't stop laughing. Red Devil is your leader? Yikes? Now that's a guy who sharpens his own tool constantly!
 
Here's what you are doing wrong: If all you have going on the weekends is setting at home rubbing your sword with a stone that explains a lot. All of you guys need to find a girl, really. You are totally pitiful. When I showed my girl friends your blogs and posts, they couldn't stop laughing. Red Devil is your leader? Yikes? Now that's a guy who sharpens his own tool constantly!

While this post didn't specifically get you, cassieg banned,..it certainly would have qualified.
No need to report this as he has already been dealt with.
 
While this post didn't specifically get you, cassieg banned,..it certainly would have qualified.
No need to report this as he has already been dealt with.

Lol, he seems a bit salty. No worries from me. I was gonna inform him that everybody has their hobbies, and while he is probably playing video games, at least us that prefer to know how to sharpen a knife are actually learning something useful. Before modern times, knowing how to sharpen a blade was as important as knowing how to start a fire, build a shelter, or hunt and fish. It was a basic survival skill. And if it ever becomes a skill required to survive again, cassieg might just be out of luck.

Oh, and I work 2 weeks away from my family at a time, so I have a lot of down time with nothing to do. And since Im married, im not out chasing women when Im working 5 states away. But, hes the one that felt compelled to speak up and belittle others, only to make himself look like a fool instead.
 
It is not a stone, I believe it is a svelt block. I agree that the birr should be massaged out if possible. This thing is awesome. If you have worked up a burr on both sides and cannot seem to get rid of the wire edge if you lighly run it over the block it pulls it off!! (without dulling your edge like running it on a wooden board) I would have never thought of such a thing, it was reccomended to me in a similar thread i had posted. Check it outonline man its usefull even if you are very good at sharpening.
Hi,
I'm not confused :)

My point is a sharpening stone is all the sharpening and deburring equipment needed.

If you have a sharpening stone, you have everything needed to remove burrs (and create burrs).

The primary purpose of sharpening stones is to create burrs (optional) and remove burrs .

Deburring doesn't require any special technique or special equipment, merely a few strokes at higher sharpening angle using the same stone that created the burr.

I see zero value in any kind of special "rock hard felt deburring block", for same money you could buy an actual sharpening stone (or diamond plate ), anywhere from 100 grit to 10,000 grit, or diamond pastes even higher grit... much simpler/easier/direct/honest way to deburr/sharpen a knife.

A felt deburring block is like a toothpaste squeezer, useless :) sure it'll squeeze your toothpaste , smash your burr, but so will anything, nobody actually needs one, its not an improvement .

Shearing off a Burr Using High Angle Passes - Steel_Drake
A Comparison of Deburring Techniques - Steel_Drake
19m26sec A Brief Introduction to Coarse Particulate Abrasive Stropping - Steel_Drake
30micron pasted strop From Dull to Crossgrain Pushcuts in 5 Minutes - Steel_Drake
 
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