Sharpmaker and double bevel

C

ClimbinMonkey

Joined
Dec 28, 2013
Messages
25
Hi all,

Edge newbie here. After a good deal of research I recently decided on a Spyderco Sharpmaker 204, due to price and ease of use. My main purpose (at least currently) is to sharpen/rebuild our families kitchen knives. Now they aren't terribly dull, as they where professionally sharpened 2ish yrs ago, but just using a steel is not nearly enough. Most of the knives are good german steel and are J.A. Henckels.

I was reading in this article:
http://forums.egullet.org/topic/26036-knife-maintenance-and-sharpening/
(to find the double beveling bit scroll down till you see some triangles)

It recommends putting a 15 then finishing the edge with a thicker 20 angle. I read in some forum posts here that most recommend the edgepro for reprofiling and the sharpmaker for maintence but I don't have the cash for the edgepro at present.

Anyway, my questions:
Is the double bevel as described the ideal edge for kitchen knives, esp those that don't get steeled as readily as they should?
Will I have a lot of difficulty creating a double bevel with the sharpmaker? If so, is there some gimick i can use to help, sandpaper? (don't want to spend money on diamond triangles)
Any further advice for getting started with the sharpmaker? I saw somewhere that drawing all the way through or something can actually dull the tip? Can anyone clarify?

One unrelated question: Just got a BenchMade Osborne. The edge is pretty good but doesn't seem extraordinary. Does anyone know the edge angle for thier blades? And would it be worthwhile to use the sharpmaker on my BenchMade or would i be committing a cardinal sin?

I know thats a long first post but hope I can get some insight!:)
Thanks!
 
Welcome. The double bevel to which you refer is what alot of people around here call a micro bevel. I wouldn't worry about anything other than proper sharpening technique and working up and removing a burr.. Use the search function and read up. There are a lot of knowledgeable and helpful people in this community. Quite a few people recommend buying wet/dry sandpaper in coarse grits and wrapping them around the rods to speed up the process. As far as drawing through and dulling is concerned; as you progress through the stones on a sharpmaker, when completing a stroke on the rods, one generally will pull the knife off the stone with a bit of lateral force, thus rounding the tip of the blade. To combat this, when working the blade on the flat side of the stones, go slow and controlled so that at the end of your stroke, the tip of the blade remains on the stone.
 
Sweet, thanks for the info. I have worked with stones a little before so i'm not intimidated by a micro bevel, as I now know its called :) Just got a sharpmaker since I had difficulty keeping very consistent bevel angles with the cheap stones I had. Would this micro bevel be the edge best for frequently used kitchen knives? From what I have read, it can help increase the strength of the edge and not let it bend.
 
ClimbinMonkey said:
Hi all,

Edge newbie here. After a good deal of research I recently decided on a Spyderco Sharpmaker 204, due to price and ease of use. My main purpose (at least currently) is to sharpen/rebuild our families kitchen knives. Now they aren't terribly dull, as they where professionally sharpened 2ish yrs ago, but just using a steel is not nearly enough. Most of the knives are good german steel and are J.A. Henckels.

I was reading in this article:
http://forums.egullet.org/topic/26036-knife-maintenance-and-sharpening/
(to find the double beveling bit scroll down till you see some triangles)

It recommends putting a 15 then finishing the edge with a thicker 20 angle. I read in some forum posts here that most recommend the edgepro for reprofiling and the sharpmaker for maintence but I don't have the cash for the edgepro at present.
Click to expand...

That's a surprisingly good post on that forum. For the most part he does a good job.

While I don't know exactly what knives you have, Henckels typically uses X50CrMoV15 for their knives. It isn't very hard (well, relative to the stuff we usually see around Bladeforums) as Henckels and Wusthof typically harden their knives to 54-56 HRC. Keeping a steel in the kitchen and using it about every other time you cook will help extend the life of your edge. Use light pressure and try and keep the knife at the same angle as the microbevel.

Because the blade isn't very hard, it's not going to hold an acute angle. I'd suggest using a 25 degree inclusive (12.5 per side) bevel with a 40 degree inclusive (20 per side) microbevel. A microbevel should be extremely small, and only formed after you have apexed your bevel.

I'd also suggest stopping on the medium rods, as X50CrMoV15 won't hold a fine edge for very long. Keeping your edge in the 9 - 16 micron range would probably be best.

Since the Sharpmaker rods will be very very slow going even for the (hopefully) small reprofiling job, I would suggest picking up some sandpaper and wrapping it around the Sharpmaker rods. Use rubber bands around the top and bottom to keep it on the rod.

In regards to your Benchmade, keep in mind that knives are sharpen by hand at the factory. While companies may have general guidelines for what angles want to have their knives leave the factory with, they aren't always exact--in fact, Benchmade has a reputation for having obtuse edges on their knives out of the factory. It seems to me that Benchmade tries for a 30-35 degree inclusive bevel with a 40-45 inclusive microbevel; they also seem to actually be towards the upper end of the 40's.
 
Great additional info, thanks! My Benchmade isn't shaving sharp which is why I got picky but im not going to mess with a hand shaped angle.

The one thing that is confusing me after reading a good deal on sharpening, and now reading the sharpmaker manual, is the sharpmaker says to alternate between the L and R rods every stroke, but I would have though I would want to stay on one side, get a burr and then move to the other like in most other sharpening methods? Any thoughts? I will try that sandpaper trick though, hopefully just generic woodworking paper is good enough.
 
There can be a problem with sharpening just on one side until you create a burr and then moving to the other side: this could create asymmetry in your edge. Sometimes this is desirable if you want to play around with asymmetrical bevels. While it is possible to create even bevels with this technique, it does require a bit of know-how in order to prevent over-sharpening on one side of the knife.

Since it seems like you are just starting out, it would likely be a good idea to stick with strokes that alternate per side for the most part. Use a sharpie and mark up the bevels so that you can see what you are doing. Once you start hitting the edge, go to 10 strokes per side, and, in between switching sides, check your edge for a burr. Continue with the 10 strokes per side until you start feeling a burr and then you will know that you have apexed your bevels.
 
A. Microbeveling ala Chad Ward: I got my first impressive edges (from very dull knives) using this technique. However, I found that it became a crutch. I could never get a very sharp edge from the first primary edge I ground in (15 degrees in your example). I've since figured out that I was NOT forming a full burr at the first angle, and the second angle (microbevel), which is a higher angle by definition, was apexing the edge, since it was raised up. I've since stopped using microbevels, except as touchups on the SharpMaker. There's nothing wrong with microbevels, I just think they aren't quite as pretty (visually) and I feel a little like I'm cheating when I use them. :)

B. Technique on the SharpMaker for *not* rounding off the tip: As you stroke down and back and you get near the bottom of the stroke, watch the tip. You want to stop with the tip touching the stone at the bottom and *not* pull it off the stone. One good way to do this is to have the tip contact the plastic base at the bottom, then draw the last 1/4 to 1/2 of the blade backwards, keeping the tip touching the plastic and the stone. Again, stop with the tip still on the stone, then lift off. If you stroke completely through the stone, dragging the tip off of it, it will round the tip off. Do what I described above instead.

C. Reprofiling blades: You're going to need something other than the Spyderco medium and fine stones. The diamond triangle rods are one choice. I'd personally opt for a good bench stone; perhaps a DMT diasharp or duosharp in 8". Or a Norton Crystolon. You'll waste HOURS and give yourself an RSI trying to do real reprofiling with the mediums.

D. Sharpmaker back and forth, versus working on one side at a time: On any sharpening system I like to do a good number of passes on one side before moving to the other. Depending on how much metal is going to be removed and the condition of the bevels on each side, this might be 10 strokes on one side, or it might be 50. I almost always start on the side where the bevel is the most narrow, that way they even out over time. I like to do up and down "scrubbing strokes" on the sharpmaker, working on one side at a time until I form a burr. Jdavis882 on youtube, who is a regular here on bladeforums as (something like) CrimsonTideShooter, has a great video on how he does it. I saw his technique and have been using it ever since. Here's the video:

[video=youtube;-MHe_8wTHmg]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-MHe_8wTHmg[/video]

Be sure to check for a burr after some number of strokes or scrubs. You should be able to work up a full burr on each side with the sharpmaker *if* your blade is in decent condition *and* it's profile is set to less than the angle of the sharpmaker (either 30 or 40 degrees inclusive, depending upon which set of slots you use). After you've formed a burr on both sides, and then removed it as much as you can from each side, doing back and forth strokes can really help to remove the last little bits of burr and give you a very sharp edge. Try to go lighter as you go doing your back and forths and you should end up with some fantastic edges.

Good luck!

Brian.
 
This is awesome info guys, thanks! I quickly learned how difficult it is to reprofile with the medium stone. I tried with some sandpaper, but might just spend the money on a diamond stone or the diamond sharpmaker rods. I'm learning quickly. Thanks!
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top