Sharpmaker Questions ...

[redpoint]

I bought a Spyderco Sharpmaker today.

I watched the video with Sal and read the manual. I found that it made relatively sharp knives really sharp using the four-stage process [20 passes per side]. However, I have some high carbon steel Grohmann forged kitchen knives that I want to sharpen - they're as dull as spoons :thumbdn: Anyway, I could not get them very sharp ... even after really spending some time ... probably 1000+ strokes [on one particular knife]. The smaller knives sharpened OK, but it's the thicker stock 8" and 10" knives are giving me some trouble. I had no problem turning an old SAK into a hair-popping sharp blade They were VERY dull to begin with so perhaps they just need a lot of time. I even tried to drop the shoulder off using the 30 deg angle - followed by the 40 deg angle.

So here are my questions:

1] Should I pony-up for the $60 diamond-coated sharpmaker 'stones' to make the process faster. Will these stones really speed-up the process?

2] Was I correct in trying to knock the shoulder off using the 30 deg angle stones?

3] Using the sharpmaker system, what would your process be given that you have some thick stock 8-10" kitchen knives that need some serious loving.

Thanks everyone! I promise to never let them get this dull again!

 

[THG]

1] Should I pony-up for the $60 diamond-coated sharpmaker 'stones' to make the process faster. Will these stones really speed-up the process?

Personally, I like using my DMT extra coarse with an Aligner clamp to set the edge. If you like the way the Sharpmaker works, you might like to use the coarser diamond stones to set your edge.

2] Was I correct in trying to knock the shoulder off using the 30 deg angle stones?

Was a 30˚ angle what you wanted?

Chances are that you haven't been getting the edge; you're still working on the shoulders.

3] Using the sharpmaker system, what would your process be given that you have some thick stock 8-10" kitchen knives that need some serious loving.

I'd definitely get out my DMT XC to get an edge on the dull knives. Then from there, you could use the Sharpmaker stones to get the edge finer.

 

[gary jp4]

I bought a Spyderco Sharpmaker today.

I watched the video with Sal and read the manual. I found that it made relatively sharp knives really sharp using the four-stage process [20 passes per side]. However, I have some high carbon steel Grohmann forged kitchen knives that I want to sharpen - they're as dull as spoons :thumbdn: Anyway, I could not get them very sharp ... even after really spending some time ... probably 1000+ strokes [on one particular knife]. The smaller knives sharpened OK, but it's the thicker stock 8" and 10" knives are giving me some trouble. I had no problem turning an old SAK into a hair-popping sharp blade They were VERY dull to begin with so perhaps they just need a lot of time. I even tried to drop the shoulder off using the 30 deg angle - followed by the 40 deg angle.

So here are my questions:

1] Should I pony-up for the $60 diamond-coated sharpmaker 'stones' to make the process faster. Will these stones really speed-up the process?

In addition to what THG said. They would be faster but still not that fast. The Sharpmaker is best for touch up like you have found. IF you want to get an idea of what the coarser stones would due try getting some 240# wet or dry sand paper and lay it over the rods. It is still not very impressive for stock removal. You need something heavier. A X-Coarse or XX-coarse diamond stone is the way to go. Try some 120 or even 80# sandpaper laid over the rods for a temporary go at it. It wont last very long but will do a better job for your stock removal or reprofiling.

2] Was I correct in trying to knock the shoulder off using the 30 deg angle stones?

You may need to thin the edges (compound bevel) on a very dull knife but that is going to be tough on the Sharpmaker for the reasons mentioned above. A 15 degree thining bevel with a 20 degree edge bevel would be great on most knives for most tasks but hard to create with a Sharpmaker. Try it with the really coarse sandpaper before you go and buy the Diamond rods, a DMT plate, or and coarser stone.

3] Using the Sharpmaker system, what would your process be given that you have some thick stock 8-10" kitchen knives that need some serious loving.

Don't use the Sharpmaker for that or at least get the coarser rods if you are set on using it. Again try it with some coarse sandpaper. It is cheap and you can see what the different grits do. Lay it over the rod to set your angle. Use water on wet and dry paper.

Thanks everyone! I promise to never let them get this dull again!

You need to form a burr to know when you have reached the edge. Conversely, when you form a burr you have reached the edge. You are not getting there and that is what THG meant when he said

Chances are that you haven't been getting the edge; you're still working on the shoulders.

If you are not getting a burr in a reasonable time you need something coarser to start with. Anything on the Sharpmaker is going to be too fine and take too long IMHO. If the existing edge angle doesn't match one of the Sharpmaker's angles or you need to remove a lot of material to get to the edge (and form a burr) it will just be to slow to use the Sharpmaker and you are probably going to give up before you ever get a burr. If you never get a burr it is not going to be sharp because you have not removed enough material to get to the edge (it is still blunt). If it takes too long you need something coarser.

After using something coarser it still wont be "sharp" because of the big scratches going into the edge form the coarser stone. You then follow up with the finer stones to remove the scratches form the coarser grit, progressing to finer and finer stones, but that will go a lot faster then trying to remove metal with the finer stones. The Sharpmaker does a better job at this point in the process.

Go out and get a few sheet of Wet & Dry sand paper like used for automotive body repair and paint prep. You can get them at a auto parts store or Wal-Mart. Try something like 120#, 240#, 320# and then go on to the sharpmaker stones. Maybe even start with some 80# if you have quite a bit of stock to remove. All this will only cost a few dollars.

Of course when you get this coarse a girt if you roll over on the edge with too steep an angle (too obtuse) and blunt the edge it will do damage faster too. So, be carfull holding your angles when sharpening. That is why you got the Sharpmaker.

Gary

 

[redpoint]

Thank you THG + Gary! Your posts were very helpful.

OK so obviously, I'm new to the world of sharpening [beyond what the average person knows about the topic]. When you say 'burr', you mean an overly sharp, rough to the touch knife edge, like when you over-sharpen a knife [as I used to do when I was 7].

Just to make sure I fully understand: continue cutting-back the shoulder [using the 30 deg back bevel] until I get a 'burr' then switch-up to 40 degs and turn the burr into a fine durable edge using the medium and fine grit stones?

 

[THG]

OK so obviously, I'm new to the world of sharpening [beyond what the average person knows about the topic].

Have patience. It's something that WILL take time to learn; you won't get it in one or two days. It takes a while for the theory of sharpening to develop in the mind.

When you say 'burr', you mean an overly sharp, rough to the touch knife edge, like when you over-sharpen a knife [as I used to do when I was 7].

Have you ever ground plastic? Or dragged a paperclip on the ground? That fuzzy edge that remains is the burr, or "wire edge." You will get a burr when you start passing the edge, when you've sharpened all the way to the edge and continue.

The thing about the burr is that it's quite sharp, but it's pretty much frayed. When you cut, it'll break and leave you with a crappy edge again.

The goal is to sharpen one side to form a burr completely along the edge (indicating that you have reached the edge all the length across), then form a burr on the other side. This means that at the angle you are using, you are now sharpening the edge.

Now you want to grind off the burr. You do this by sharpening 1-1 on each side, meaning alternate one stroke on the left, one stroke on the right, rinse, repeat. This way you are left with an actual edge in the shape of something like this ^ instead of this ^ with some thin wire at the tip which is going to break.

Just to make sure I fully understand: continue cutting-back the shoulder [using the 30 deg back bevel] until I get a 'burr' then switch-up to 40 degs and turn the burr into a fine durable edge using the medium and fine grit stones?

If that's what you want, sure. You don't even have to do 30˚ if you don't want to. You can just use 40˚ (assuming your bevel is already less than 40˚; if it's greater than 40˚, you will still have to take down the shoulders).

I will tell you this: if you do make a burr with 30˚ and then go to 40˚, it will be easier to remove that burr. You will be left with a microbevel, though (which many people like to do). In my experience, if you try to remove a burr with the same angle you used to create it, the burr infinitely just flops from side to side. So I like to form a burr, give it a couple 1-1 strokes at a higher angle (to get rid of the burr), then get rid of that microbevel and be left with an edge going 1-1 at that original angle used to create the burr again.

Good luck!

 

[gary jp4]

You could continue at 30 degrees until you get a burr even if you ultimately want a 40 degree edge or micro bevel. Of course you would finish with the 40 degree angle with the fine rods. You could also just cut the shoulder off part way at 30 degrees to reduce the amount of sharpening you have to do each time you go back to the Sharpmaker set at 40 degrees and finish with a micro bevel at 40 degrees. On some soft, or tough, steels it is hard to get rid of the burr. Finishing with a steeper micro angle after it is formed will help eliminate the burr more easily. Also, as you sharpen over and over the edge moves back into the blade and it gets thicker behind the edge. This makes it harder to sharpen and doesn't cut as well. Reducing the shoulder is required every now and then for that reason too.

An edge finished at 30 degrees is good for some tasks and works better with some steels then others. 30 degrees is more like a razor then 40 degrees but 40 degrees might me more durable for the task and steel you are using. I have some cheap, soft kitchen knives that won't hold an edge cutting bananas at 30 degrees but hold up for one cutting session on the cutting board at about 50 degrees and then need at least to be steeled. The
sharpmaker would do a good job at that point also.

I have a Japanese Western style Chef's knife that holds up to the cutting board with a 26 to 30 degree inclusive edge all day long with no rolling of the edge, and a paring knife that I keep at 16 to 20 degrees inclusive. It cuts like a laser, or razor, but the edge would be damage if you hit the cutting board very hard and I have to protect it to some extent and it becomes somewhat specialized for certain tasks. I don't let my wife use either of those. She has a reputation for cutting pizza with a freshly sharpened chef's knife on a pizza stone even though we have a roller type pizza cutter. I keep the cheap knives sharp for her though.

Read this and I think it will very eloquently answer all you questions about sharpening in general. Very extensive tutorial covering theory including edge angles back bevels, burrs, etc. and all kinds of sharpening systems including the Sharpmaker and free hand. Very good reading form a great writer. Chad Ward writes mostly about kitchen knives, hence the name of his book, but the principles apply to all knives.

Gary

 

[rpttrsn]

All the above comments are from those who have been where you are now at one time. (I think)
The only addition I feel you should try (don't think I saw it mentioned) is to mark the edge with a sharpie or any magic marker when you start to sharpen the knives. Make a few strokes on each side and the look at the edge. You will now see where you are making contact with the stones. Marker removed. This will tell you how much you have to go to get to the angle you desire. This method later in your sharpening trials will give you an idea as to the angle on the blade at the start. Best of luck in getting the sharp edge you are looking for.

 

[redpoint]

Gary, THG, rpttrsn:

Thank you so much, you guys are a wealth of knowledge and have been extremely helpful! I'm going to pick-up the diamond stones tomorrow to expedite the process a little. Then I'll search for the allusive burr. I'll let you know how things go and I'm sure I'll have a few more questions along the way. I'm well aware that knife sharpening is an art, so it's important to formulate good habits from the get-go.

 

[SpacemanSpiff23]

When I first got my Sharpmaker, I used it on some of my "dull as a sack of hammers" knives and it didn't get them very sharp. You have to really work at them for a while with the coarse stones to get them started. I finally got a few of them sharp, but I think the diamond stones would have helped greatly.

 

[redpoint]

When I first got my Sharpmaker, I used it on some of my "dull as a sack of hammers" knives and it didn't get them very sharp. You have to really work at them for a while with the coarse stones to get them started. I finally got a few of them sharp, but I think the diamond stones would have helped greatly.

Thanks spaceman ... I'm going to pick-up those bad-boys today ...

 

[THG]

The only addition I feel you should try (don't think I saw it mentioned) is to mark the edge with a sharpie or any magic marker when you start to sharpen the knives.

How could we forget this? It must be said so often that we all assume someone already said it

Glad to know you've got our backs :thumbup:

Then I'll search for the allusive burr.

Oh, I don't believe I mentioned tricks for detecting a burr:

1. For a bigger burr, you can feel it when you run your finger ACROSS (NOT along, of course) the edge. It will feel rough. On the other side, it will probably be smooth.

2. The best way, in my opinion, is to look in BRIGHT light (it's hard in normal indoor light). Just move the knife around in the light, and if you see a different brightness at the very edge (it'll look like a wire along the edge, I guess, hence the name "wire edge"), you've got a burr.

The reason I recommend #2 is because often times I get a burr that I can see but can't feel.

 

[gary jp4]

Yeah the marker tells a lot. Sometimes I don't use it though and can see from the scratch marks where I am hitting the bevel and if getting to the edge. The marker is best for starters when learning and in many other situations though.

I do the same thing with the light. I like to have the knife out of direct bright light, in the shadows if you will, with a bright light in the background. Like in the kitchen with bright sunlight coming in the window but with the knife not in the direct sunlight, or in the shop with a bright light a few feet away but not focused on the knife. When you find the right angle the light reflects off the edge. Anyway look hard enough and you can see the burr and the same technique works equally well for finding those dull areas on an edge or where the edge is rolled over. Some use a magnifying glass or loupe.

Most importantly, get the burr first or none of this matters.

Have you read that article?

 

[Locust]

I hope this isn't considered commandeering the thread but I have a few questions myself. I have been toying with the idea of getting a sharpmaker for a while. I have a Deluxe Lansky system that goes from extra course to ultra fine but it doesn't seem to be working for me very well. It could be practice but I can't seem to get it to line up properly to almost any factory edge I want to maintain. Also it doesn't go below 17 degrees and I have a few knives that are around 15 (I think that would be 30 inclusive). I have heard that it is also faster to set up and use plus it's better for big blades and learning to do it by hand which I really want to be able to do. Do you think it would be worth it to purchase or should I just keep trying the Lansky.
Also is there a website out there that has compiled lists of factory angles for various knives? I have tried the sharpie trick but I can't get it to work that well yet. I would try it more but I don't want to accidentally dull a good knife through trial and error when all I want to do is some light maintenance work.

 

[gary jp4]

The Sharpmaker is great for touch-up work.

That qualification means it's not great for removing a lot of material or matching your existing angles, unless they are 15 or 20 degrees. You can angle the blade to adjust the angles (compensate) but then you defeat the purpose of the V sticks and the concept of sharpening with the knife blade vertical and are basically free hand sharpening. If you can do that you could be, and would be better off, working on free hand bench stones.

It looks like (I have never used one) the DMT would be better for matching your exciting angles and also for use with bench stones. Used in that way you are getting pretty close to free hand sharpening. It would only be a small jump to free hand. Then your options are endless.

It doesn't sound like the Sharpmaker is the answer for you unless your knives have either 15 or 20 degree bevels or you are willing to get them to those angles somehow.

 

[fewpop]

Thanks spaceman ... I'm going to pick-up those bad-boys today ...

redpoint, thought I'd share a couple of things I experienced when I first got my diamond Sharpmaker rods (if this has already been covered above, please pardon my oversight):

1. use a light touch. it is tempting to apply pressure to get the job done, but you will do better with a light pressure on the diamond rods.

2. don't let the tip of your knife "drop" off the edge of the rod when you complete the back stroke. I ruined a couple of good tips before I realized the damage I was doing by not stopping the back stroke just before the tip clears the rod on the diamond rods.

Hope that helps. The Sharpmaker is a great system for maintenance, but not the best for reprofiling, although it can be done. Just my 2 cents.

 

[6749]

i also found that for the first while i had to clean my sharpmaker rods more often. they seemed to glaze over easier at first for fillings.

 

[Locust]

@ gary jp4

I know you haven't used one but which DMT system are you speaking of?

 

[THG]

@ gary jp4

I know you haven't used one but which DMT system are you speaking of?

The Aligner for exactness, the regular whetstones for freehand.

 

[Locust]

Thanks. Are the Aligner stones big enough to free hand if you want to give it a shot?

 

[THG]

Thanks. Are the Aligner stones big enough to free hand if you want to give it a shot?

I suppose you COULD, but it really isn't enough room. And I think you'd have to have some kind of a stand (1" x something) so that the knife handle (on some knives, like probably the Delica) won't touch the table and prevent the stone from touching the edge.