sharpmaker woes

N

nyfe_me

Joined
Dec 16, 2005
Messages
12
I am new to sharpening, and I am trying to get my buck strider/tarani police utility knife shaving sharp. First off is this is a dumb goal for this knife, given the grind geometry? It seems like every time I try and sharpen it, I get 2 steps forward, one step back. I think this is due to my hand changing alignments slightly as I go from the stone on the left to the stone on the right. Is there a trick to getting the knife to line up and feeling that before the sharpening stroke? Also how do I know where I should quit using the sharpmaker and go to a strop or fine grit stone? Thanks for the help.

Edit: I have been sharpening at 30 degrees instead of 40 because the blade is ATS-34.
 
If not getting results on sharpmaker - if blade is dull - may need to re-profile first using a coarse hone - I use a DMT 220 grit - then use sharpmaker.
 
nyfe_me said:
Edit: I have been sharpening at 30 degrees instead of 40 because the blade is ATS-34.
Click to expand...


Try doing it at 40 degrees. If the original edge is far enough from 30 degrees, you are gonna be sharpening a mighty long time on the sharpmaker before it gets sharp.
If that doesn't work, it won't hurt anything, and it won't take long to give it a try.
 
NYFEME-

Welcome to the forum. Here is my two cents worth of advice.

1. Put some black magic marker on the primary bottom edge bevel. After a couple of passes see where the stone if touching the edge. The black mark will be removed where the blade is sharpened by the rods. If you are not sharpening at the very bottom of the edge or you are "reprofiling" not sharpening. If that is the case switch to the 30 degree angle setting and with using the edge of the gray triangle stone sharpen until when you mark the blade edge with the magic marker you completely remove it all the way to the bottom. This may take quite some time. I have spent almost an hour doing this on a knife made from good steel. However you rarely have to do this. I now use an x-course DMT diamond whetstone which makes it go more quickly.

2. After you get the secondary bevel sharpened switch the stones to the 40 degree setting. Keep your knife blade pointing straight up and down, not tilted into the stones.

3. At 40 degrees use edge of the gray stones until the edge is very sharp. Then go to the flat edge of the gray stones. This will give you a good working edge.

4. If you want to refine and further polish the edge then use the white stones at 40 degrees. First sharpen with the edge of the stone and then the flat.

Don't go to the next step until the blade edge is very sharp at the current step. Remember the first time you do this it may take some considerable time. Don't force the knife into the stones. Let the stones do the work.

I set the Sharpmaker on a flat surface below my waist and do this standing up. Usually it is a small table in front of the TV set.

Here is some good info wth pictures to illustrate the general knife sharpening process. You have a good knife that you should be able to get very sharp.

http://forums.egullet.com/index.php?showtopic=26036
 
The problems you are having come up often with ATS34 and 154CM. These are two of the harder steels to get a pleasing edge on for a lot of us. Even when they get as sharp as you can make them the edge fools you because it never takes that 'bite' that you can get from other steels. It doesn't mean they are not sharp. They get sharp and they hold that edge well but these two steels seem to like a finer edge over the toothier more aggressive slicing edges you can get from other steels. That is mostly why I always get my blades in this steel in a combo edge. In my own experience I have found both these steels to be better for push cutting than slicing. If you want slicers I'd suggest VG10, or S30V. Both these can get a nice edge that you can saw or push cut with. The only way you'll ever saw with an ATS34 or 154CM blade is with a combo edge. At least that is how I see it based on my use of these steels.

STR
 
nyfe_me said:
I am new to sharpening, and I am trying to get my buck strider/tarani police utility knife shaving sharp. First off is this is a dumb goal for this knife, given the grind geometry?
Click to expand...

No.

how do I know where I should quit using the sharpmaker and go to a strop or fine grit stone?
Click to expand...

The Sharpmaker fine rods are very fine, unless you have a really high grit waterstone then most benchstones will be more coarse. After you finish on the fine grit stones properly the knife should be shaving smoothly, cut newprint on a push and possibly catch hair above the skin.

I have been sharpening at 30 degrees instead of 40 because the blade is ATS-34.
Click to expand...

That is likely the problem, the initial edge angle is greater and you are just hitting the shoulder.

-Cliff
 
I also received my Sharpmaker today and proceeded to sharpen all of my kitchen knives. I am now the proud owner of a tomato-laser! The same knife I was sawing through tomatoes with just the night before, now sinks into the tomato like a hot knife in butter. Thank you Spyderco!

Shao
 
Thanks for all the help & suggestions!

Ok, so I guess first I need to reprofile the edge before I try and sharpen it. I will try that marker trick. Will the ink from the marker stick to the rods?

How long should it take, this reprofiling, assuming that I haven't gotten anywhere so far, and that I will be using the edge of the grey stones?

Just out of curiousity, does anyone know what angles this knife ships with?
 
You can ask on the Buck forum, it could take quite awhile to reprofile the edge with the rods, as in an hour or so.

-Cliff
 
Assuming the knife doesn't need reprofiling and you just want the edge back, try this.

On coarse stones start at 40 setting and under bright light flush the edge with the stone. Dont push yet. Twist your wrist slightly into the V, like a hair or two. Once your comfortable and its still flush slowly downstroke and repeat on other side. 10 passes and check it. Go slow and dont rush as alignment is more important than speed.

If you feel a dramatic difference then your on the right track and proceed to fine stones and do the same procedure. When your good with those, the repeat on the white stones again, this time though keep the blade straight as you downstroke like you normally would. Same alignment and speed. Strop it when its ready.

If the edge starts to thin out then your back bevels need to be redone. I usually twist out of the V on 30 setting for this. Seems to help speed up the sharpmakers performance. A cleaning in between also helps.
 
Ok, finally got the thing sharp enough that if I press hard-ish, it will cut the hairs on my arm. Goal reached :) I am glad to have gotten this far. Besides the standard advice like "keep the blade facing straight down" (or spine straight up), here are the finer points that I found I needed to concentrate on to get the proper results:

1) make sure that the blade is exactly perpendicular to the stone along the horizontal axis (top-down view) along the entire sharpening stroke.
In the sharpmaker DVD, Sal puts a good amount of emphasis on keeping the blade straight up and down, but I don't remember him talking much about the angle of the blade in relation to the stones along the horizontal. To anyone with sharpening experience, this is probably a no-brainer, so I can understand it being glossed over, but to those of us who are sharpening for the first time in our lives on the sharpmaker, this isn't something we would all figure out, right off the bat.

2) visualize the direction of the forces you are applying with your hand, try to only be applying force in a vertical (straight down) direction.

When I first started on the sharpmaker, I was so focused on keeping the blade straight up and down, that I was applying a very inconsistant amount and direction of force, often applying more force horizontally into the stones than vertically. I think the role of consistancy of force- both in the direction and amount, cannot be overstated here. Once I slowed down and really focused on these things, I could actually notice the improvement from a single stroke!

Thank you to everyone who helped me on this, and I hope that some of this will be helpful to other newbs out there.
 
nyfe_me said:
Thanks for all the help & suggestions!

Ok, so I guess first I need to reprofile the edge before I try and sharpen it. I will try that marker trick. Will the ink from the marker stick to the rods?

How long should it take, this reprofiling, assuming that I haven't gotten anywhere so far, and that I will be using the edge of the grey stones?

Just out of curiousity, does anyone know what angles this knife ships with?
Click to expand...


No, you don't always have to reprofile!!! You can get an idea of the edge angle using the 40 degree setting and magic marker on the blade edge.

You only have to reprofile if you are not hitting the primary micro-edge (the tiny edge) at the bottom of the blade when using the edge of the gray rods set in the 40 degree setting. One the knife is sharp you rarely have to do this. Problem is some knives come new with gosh awful edges on them. Other knives like the hollow ground Spydercos, the Benchmades, the Bark River fixed blades, etc. are great out of the box and hold a great edge. I might suggest that you do a little research on the different kinds of knife steels. Some are great, some not. The ones with the higher Rockwell hardness seem to hold edges longer. This Rockwell hardness is expressed as an RC value. You will see an ad saying the knife is RC 56-58 or RC 58-60.

Magic marker will show you this very easily although a lighted magnifier of some sort is great to see the edge. It doesn't hurt the rods at all as you are really putting very little on the edge of the knife blade. It just makes it real easy to see where the rods are removing steel.

If you are not hitting the primary micro-edge it can take an hour to reprofile with the the edge of the gray rods in the 30 degree setting if you have a knife with good steel. Just be patient. Remember decent knife sharpeners never quit until the knife at each particular step is very sharp before moving to the next step. You might also want to look into getting a strop/hone (or make one).

http://www.drsharpening.com/leatherhone.html

Oh, did I mention you must be patient? That was my biggest problem when I started. I had all the tools. I had the knowledge. I didn't have the patience and wasted lots of time going backwards.

It seems like you are over the hump part of the learning curve. Way to go! Your Buck Strider Tarani has ATS-34 steel (good stuff) and is hollow ground so the 40 degree setting should work fine.

Here is a link to that particular knife model.

http://www.knivesplus.com/buck-bu-882bkx.html

The blade has a good curve to it so you will want to rotate your hand as you make a pass to keep the edge perpendicular to the edge of the rod.

If some of these terms are confusing here is a good link with pictures that helps explain what we are all trying to convey to you so that you will be the sharpening wizard of your neighborhood.

http://forums.egullet.com/index.php?showtopic=26036
 
Sharpmaker arrived yesterday and Ive put the kitchen knives...leatherman and garden shears thru it already.
The magic marker trick definately helps to know if your on the edge or if your wasting your time on the shoulders. I had to put the leatherman waves main knive blade on the grinder first to put a finer primary bevel before the sharpmaker would do its thing on the 40 degree setting.
seems to work pretty well though.. Im happy :)
 
Gshock -

What the most confusing thing for you when you started? Did the rods need to be roughed up before removing edge steel?

How long did it take to regrind the Leatherman? I didn't think their blades were that thick and am surprised the 40 degree setting was hitting the shoulders.
 
umm.. I didnt really find anything confusing cause Id read alot about them online already plus the book and dvd are pretty clear.
The leathermans main knife blade was pretty worn and the primary bevel wasnt less then 40 degrees anymore.. my buddy had sharpened it without too much thought out in the field so some grinding was required.
Ive got an aluminium carbide wheel on my grinder with a veritas hard felt wheel on the other shaft which i use veritas green honing compound on.
works wonders once youve got a burr up but its kinda hard carrying the bench grinder around with me lol.
The sharpmakers great to carry around but like all the guys have been saying.. you gotta have the primary bevel more acute then the sharpmakers settings first.
 
oh... also, the dvd says you can rub the ceramic sticks together to rough them up abit before you use them for more bite but you dont need to.
they will rough themselves up once you start using them anyway. (or so they say :)
seems to work fine without any rubbing togetherness.
 
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