SHOOT 'EM?

Donna Barnas · Feb 7, 2000

In Greg Alland's tape ADVANCED KNIFE ONE he mentions how deadly the knife work is in Kali, so much so that Dan Inosanto said that in California the police are told that if they suspect that their criminal is a Filipino Martial Artist they are to SHOOT THEM.

I seem to be the only one on this entire board to have seen the short film made by the FBI warning law enforcement of both the lethalness of a knife and of the art of Kali. I was taking a defensive handgun class taught by a police officer who also worked with the Sheriff's dept. and we had several Sheriff's dept. in the class along with us civilians.

I mentioned this film to Greg Alland and he told me that he and Leo Gaje were called into talk to the FBI about the art that the FBI wanted to know what it was all about and Greg commented how they were a bit late that it had been in the States since the early 70's.

I find it interesting that the FBI would feel that they need to investigate Kali and inform law enforcement of its existance. But, I am pretty suprised that the police would be told to "shoot 'em" seeing that it is not an art that circulates the criminal community. If anything law enforcement types have been taught the art not criminals. There seems to be some misinformation here. I would be interested in others comments on this matter.

PROTECTOR · Feb 7, 2000

Donna

I'm sure you've heard of or seen the law enforcement tape called "Surviving Edged Weapons". Guro Dan and Tuhon Leo Gaje are featured prominently throughout the tape.

One scene shows Guro Dan in live action training scenario for officers. The officers are supposed to 'investigate the little Filipino guy' and react like it was live.
Guro Dan carves them up with training knives, before they can even reach their guns.

Tuhon Gaje makes knives appear from all over his body and carves up life like dummies.

The tape is also filled with interviews with officers who have survived knife attacks. They show awfull scars, break down and cry and scare the snot out of you with thier stories.

The video really plays up the 'deadliness of the knife culture'. Part of this is just hype, but part of it is trying to get thru the 'Im too tough to worry about it" attitude of a lot law enforcement.

I'm an FMA and an LEO, so I say the above from experience. I first saw the surviving edged weapons tape at the police academy. After watching it, most of the cadets, who had never been exposed to anything like it,
were pretty shook up.

In the state of Washington we are pretty lucky, as the states head Defensive Tactics Instructor, Bob Bragg, is an FMA. We did some knife and stick work for the other cadets and this just reinforced the idea that if the BG had Filipino training they had better shoot them (a lot of times).

As to this being an offical policy, I really doubt it. It would just be a lawsuit waiting to happen. As to being an unofficial policy or agreed upon opinion among street officers, I wouldn't be at all surprised.

The majority of officers, unfortunately, don't know squat about self-defense. They take the academy class, pass and forget it. The thought of people with our level of training in the use of lethal tools scares them and people always react badly when scared.

Edmund Rowe · Feb 8, 2000

I don't like the idea of them singling out one martial art as particularly deadly. I think anyone who trains seriously and with a practical emphasis in any one art will become deadly, as long as it isn't something like a black belt in tactical tiddlywinks.

This is just my opinion but if someone demonstrates serious martial art ability and I'm a cop and they're close enough to be a threat and I haven't got an edge with first strikes with a baton or a bunch of backup officers etc then I'd shoot, too. Not just FMA, but anyone who appeared to be too deadly with their hands/feet etc.
DISCLAIMER: The above assumes the martial artist in question has already demonstrated dangerous threat to the officer in question and failed to heed verbal warnings, etc, all other avenues have been exhausted without endangering the officer, blah blah blah.

Edmund

Smoke · Feb 8, 2000

La Dona,

, that mentality of one art being "too deadly to handle" isn't new in LEO circles. Expectations of LEOs are quirky, they're expected to apprehend violent baddies without hurting them and it's easy to assume that they should always "match" the threat.
Ex. A crowbar or bottle threat met with a PR-24 or ASP, fists met with hands.

Last year, an Asian man wielding a broomstick and swinging in the street was shot by LEO as it was assumed he was an MA and capable of deadly force. Press was negative toward the officer.

Ronald Reagan · Feb 8, 2000

Let's just shoot all the martial artists, especially those vicious Fillipino types!

I think Donna brought up a very good point. Many effective martial artists, although trained in use of deadly force, also have equal amounts of training in self control and discipline.

Donna Barnas · Feb 8, 2000

Protector,
Thanks for the insight on this from the law enforcement point of view, you make a lot of good points.

Edmund, Glad to see that you stop by and visit.

Smoke, That is a scarry and unfortunate story.

Ronald, you said it better than myself when you stated that Martial artists also are trained in self control and discipline. This is why when I saw the above mentioned tape I didn't see the FMA's as a threat because I know that learning any martial art takes discipline and self control. I guess I just assumed that everyone else thought about it this way.

Tamishigiri · Feb 13, 2000

All good posts about a viable FEAR in the unenlightened souls.
For me there is a principle called RECTITUDE.
It is deeply covered in a number of books.
If anyone does'nt understand or seeks a deeper understanding of this concept/principle let me suggest KODO, BUSHIDO or BUDOSHOSHINSHU (The Warrior's Primer).
It's always worked for me.
IMHO

------------------
"This is the law:
There is no possible victory in defense, The Sword is more important than the shield, And skill is more important than either, The final weapon is the brain. All else is supplemental."

Call Me Al · Feb 14, 2000

I agree with Protector's opinion on the subject. I am an LEO and a FMA. Prior to hiring on the department I was in TKD for approx. 7 years. I saw the Surviving Edged Weapons video i the academy and made me realize there was more training to be done than I currently had in the academy and TKD so I sought out seminars on my own in the FMA. I have found an instructor under GuroInosanto and have been training for fours years and edged weapons situations I will still go to my side arm. The idea is to go to the next level in a threat continuum so the officer can control the situation without injury. If the officer is injured or killed the bad guy has access to the officer's weapons and the officer can no longer protect those who he was sent to the scene to protect.

I have never seen or heard of an FBI study of the FMA or a directive for shoot anyone suspected of being trained in the arts. Only a justistifiable shot would be tolerated and that is on a case by case basis. One of the probelms in some LEO circles is a off the cuff comment is made during training and is taken to heart or misunderstood by someone who takes it back to their department.

------------------
Call Me Al