Shop setup questions. NOISE ISSUES! HELP!

R

razorhunter

Joined
Jan 27, 2002
Messages
470
Guys,
Ok, so my freaking shop in the basement has to be under a bedroom, and there are going to be times that I want to work, when it is a little late at night, and people are sleeping.
I have put insulation doubled up in the floor joists, but that is only of LITTLE help when it comes to cutting titanium w/ a bandsaw, etc. I have yet to get a grinder, but when I do, I'm sure it will be loud laying into a piece of Ti with a 36 grit belt. I'm very curious to see just how loud my new Bader or KMG will be, while just running by itself, without someone grinding on it, let alone with me laying into it with some steel. I realize that I will probably have to just do the bandsawing during regular hours when no one is sleeping. However, I would REALLY REALLY like to do whatever it takes to be able to do everything else (grinding mostly) at whatever times I so desire.
Anyhow, I have seen all of these soundproofing materials/boards/sheets/fabrics/etc. at the industrial supply centers. DAMN they are expensive. However, if I can find something that WORKS, I would buy it, if possible for me to afford. Anyone got any suggestions? I'm talking some GOOD sound deadening here. My basement work area is approximately 400sq ft, but the loud machines will be to one side, in a 200 sq ft area, so I MIGHT could get away without having to do something to the ENTIRE area. I don't know, as I'm not really experienced here.
I originally had some 1 3/4" thick styrofoam insulation board that is made to use as sheathing on commercial buildings, and I was going to put that on the ceiling, over the insulation I already installed in the floor joists. However, I'm wondering if anyone knows of any other material that they KNOW will work.
I realize total soundproofing probably isn't going to happen, but it sure would be nice to be able to work when the hell I want to work.
P.S.
When I'm standing in the basement, the floor joists are right around 8' from the concrete floor, so YES, it is close!! Wish the ceiling were higher, but hell, this is a 25 year old house, what do you expect?
ANY help is greatly appreciated fellas. I know someone has been through this before, and is CURRENTLY working in their shop at ALL hours! LOL! RIGHT???!!

__________________
Paul Cataldo
 
i am a newbie but do have some advice about sound deadening...

one of the first options used in construction to cut down noise is to use 2 or more layers of sheetrock with about a half inch of air space between them it helps cut down the noise.. but it'll take out some of your head room as well.

Shiva69 (wannabe knife maker)
 
I have family that own music shops and have just built one, in them they have the soundproofed practice areas for the lessons. When I see them tommorow I will ask them what they used and how it works. If I forget to post after the holidays, just remind me and I will get the info, I will be busy until Tues so I may not get to post right away but I will ask. Good luck
 
The sheetrock wall described is a standard 2-hour fire rated separation only with batt insulation between - typically used to separate one apartment or office from another. It works fairly well in the daytime when there is a lot of background noise, but believe me, in the dead of night, you still hear things you'd rather not hear. What works better is concrete or gypsum block. I live in a precast concrete apartment building with Gyp-Block walls and skim coat of plaster, and believe me, I'll take that over firerated Gyp Board construction anytime.

What soundproofs a music booth, or even a medical exam booth is in part the materials placed bewteen the walls, but I think it is also a matter of isolating the inside of the box from the outside, in effect, you have a box suspended within a box held apart (and together) using vibration dampening connections. Not very practical in a home.

Sound is absorbed by a lot of different materials, all typically with a bit of weight to them. Hard (and hollow) objects with nice polished surfaces will reflect sound very happily whereas soft (thick) and irregular tends to absorb it or at least scatter it. Oddly, if I remember correctly, sound travels faster through denser materials.
If you're going the Gyp board route try using homasote panels against the studs first (big heavy compressed paper-like boards) that should offer greater absorbing ability, then cover them over with a layer of fire rated sheetrock if there will be flames nearby. Against the ceiling, I think BASF makes a sound absorbing fiber mat material.
Be sure to check fire ratings and installation requirements.

What you'll also have to deal with is vibration. Nothing travels better than low frequency vibrations - can you hear your refrigerator motor hum away late at night? How about the bass emanating from one of those huge stereo speakers mounted in some idiot's car or van for the express purpose of annoying the hell out of the rest of the world? There, a good 4" concrete base works well with the machinery set atop "mass dampers" or very stiff heavy duty springs similar to the way airconditioning equipment might be mounted on a roof.

Nothing works better than building a fully enclosed concrete basement, or at least getting the shop out of the house altogether. Then it's your neighbors you'll be annoying at night.
 
Thanks for the help bud. I realize this is going to be a give and take situation.
However, as stated before, I am looking for the BEST (while still somewhat affordable) material/product to install on the ceiling that will keep the noise down the most. Of course, it must be within reason. I can't install something that is a full 12" thick, while at the same time, I don't have to have the THINNEST stuff out there either.
I have considered a base layer of sheetrock, then a series of "z" channels made to hold the next layer of sheetrock off the 1st layer by 1", thus creating a dead air space.
However, that is a lot of work, especially if you saw all the work it would take to be able to do that (a/c ducst everywhere/ pipes/wires, etc. I am excellent at remodeling, hence my remodeling business, but I was hoping someone would suggest some type of material/panels that would allow me to install ONE single layer of something, as opposed to two layers of sheetrock.
Still thinking about this fellas..... Thanks to all who have replied...
 
I had a friend who created a band room in his basement.He purchased used carpeting that was pulled up in a hotel refurb job (he got it for almost nothing).He had 100s of Sq.yards.He hung it on the walls in two layers,about 2" apart.He carpeted the ceiling by nailing it up,and then added a second layer about 3" away by using 20d nails (he just drove them in an inch.).The ceiling carpet had a sort of wave shape to it by letting the carpet sag a couple of inches between the joists.He carpeted the floor with about three layers of carpet,Mostly to get rid of the extra carpet he still had.He made a sort of slit carpet curtain (it looked like the car wash stuff)that he could pull out of the way with a tie rope,and let hang over the stairs when practicing.It worked unbelievably.The band could not be heard upstairs virtually at all!
 
Paul while you are researching the options your best bet is time management.Your probably already doing it. My old mentor went as far as forging extra blades in winter to finish in summer to avoid the heat.

With a bit of planning and starting on a number of projects at once you can do the quite stuff and put off the loud stuff. I have a problem with a tin shed and close neighbours with young children.

Dave Larsen will probably pipe up with the fact that I don't do much anyway at the moment but when I did that was my way around it. I started something or finished something in the late hours. I also work rotating shift work so I have an advantage there.

As one of the other guys mentioned vibration is also going to be a problem.

Don't be put off there is always a way around it.
 
Sound insalation panels for add-on soundproofing, as opposed to built in when the room was built, are made from styrofoam with an irregular surface to diffuse the sound (mostly the higher pitch ones get diffused) with a backing of lead sheet to absorb whatever isn't diffused (the deep sounds). I donno if I'd want to work with lead to make some, but another soft dense material might work as well.
 
Given the very irregular nature of your ceiling (pipes & ducting), flexible and pliable materials are likely to be your tools of choice to use against the noise.

You may be facing a couple of problems:
1. low frequency noise transmission through the mass (framing) of the house
2. high frequency noise transmission through the air

To alleviate #1, isolate your machines or other noise sources from the house floor/wall or bench. Rubber feet, spring mounts, or a "floating" mounting platform can help. Double-walls with non-conducting connectors between them (z-channel mounting) can also mitigate some of this type of noise.

To attentuate #2, break up or absorb the sound wave as it travels through the air. Irregular shapes (2a. macro) & surfaces (2b. micro) will help break it up.

2a. Creating irregular & non-contiguous shapes keeps any one surface from absorbing enough of the sound energy to act as a passive radiator into the rest of the hosue. Working around your pipes & ducting will likely arbitrarily create rather a rather irregularly shaped ceiling.

2b. Carpeting can be effective for absorbing high frequency sound. Multiple layers will work better than a single layer. Soundboard (looks like thick Scotchbrite material) can be bought that will help absorb sound waves.

Some noise-deadening and soundproofing sites:
http://www.soundproofing101.com/index.htm
http://www.thisoldhouse.com/toh/knowhow/interiors/article/0,16417,212626,00.html
http://soundproofing.org/infopages/house.htm
http://www.soundproofing.org/
 
george tichbourne said:
I have had decent results with heavy carpeting on the ceiling. The irregular surface helps deaden the sound.
Click to expand...


How do you vacuum it?

Razor: the 'z' channels sounds good, you're effectively building a rated ceiling, the proper way.
As to other assemblies, I didn't mean heavy ceiling but wall construction. Too much on the ceiling will affect the loading of the joists. The carpeting sounds not too bad of an idea - irregular enough surface, density and soft enough material to deaden a lot of noise.
As AWP and I stated, vibration will be the next biggest issue to deal with.
 
Razor,

Although I only make knives as a hobby, I've had the same problem. Right now I'm dealimg with it by working during the day when no one is around, but that's not a good solution. my solution is to look for a garage to rent on the outskirts of town; in the $100-150 a month range. All I would need is a secure, 20X20' area with electricity.

May not be a solution for you, but thought I'd mention it as a option.

regards,

Dave Stifle
 
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