Should I be upset with this maker?

R

ravenQ8

Joined
Jan 2, 2002
Messages
208
I don't want to create an uproar here so I will tread lightly but I need your sage advice. Months ago I saw an internet ad for a knife by a custom maker. It appeared to be a standard design for him. I not only bought that knife but commissioned him to make a "to order" edition of the same basic design. I specified the filework, spacers, scales, and pins. I told him not to skimp on any materials, I wanted the best he could make and to take his time. I got the knife and I was generally happy with it even though there was a flaw in one of the scales. The flaw is major, affecting the symmetry of the left/right scales but he had a rationalization.
I now see that this maker has another knife up for sale that is almost identical but without the scale flaw. He also deleted the spacers and there is less (but identical) filework.
Did this guy build me a half-assed prototype and liked the look enough that he built a better version? Or are there only so many variations on a basic design?
I know its hard to make a call on this without pictures but from my description does it sound like a knock-off of what I thought was a one-of-a-kind knife? Or once he builds it does that combination of style and materials belong to him?
I really feel betrayed on this because he and I spent a lot of time and emails negotiating the final design and because I was a repeat customer. Am I generally happy with the knife? Reasonably but only because I thought it was a one-timer that I helped design and noone else had. Would I return it? Maybe, but if I did it would be because I was so fed up that I would return both knives I bought from him.
Do I have cause for complaint? Thanks for your thoughts. Yes, I will take it up with him personnally if the concensus is that I have a valid complaint. Oh, and in fairness to him, there was no acknowledgement of "uniqueness".
 
I would call and tell him i'm sending back the knife for the reason you stated, just that one knife, if he doesn't want to fix it i would ask for my money back, end of story. Life is too short and there are too many other makers out to sweat any knife IMO.

James
 
Unless he agreed that this knife would be a one of, I don't see anything wrong with the maker using the same design again. Many of the knife designs you see out there started out as an idea put forth by a client.

As far as the flawed scale is concerned that should be repaired or replaced.
 
First, I think that a flawed scale, by itself, is reason enough to return a knife. You would have been totally in your right to return it, say within 7 days of reception, and ask for a refund or a new one.

This being said, if I understand correctly that you've had the knife for a while and unless there's a clear breach of argument (i.e., it was meant to be a unique piece), I don't think there's been anything unethical here. After all, what you have here is a prototype - many people enjoy this idea. You also have the pride of knowing the knife would not exist without you.

I do think the maker shouldn't have left a flawed knife leave their shop, but that's a separate story. I also think that it makes good business sence for them to accept it back and exchange it, however, everyone conducts their business differently.

JD
 
First, i would probably be flattered if a maker used my design as a pattern for future knives, id know I started it all and that would give me a kick, knowing i own and designed the original.

But, it sounds like you have a valid complaint about the flaw in the scale. Thats not something i would accept, not on a custom knife, and he SHOULD be willing to fix it free of charge.

Lately, i have been in close contact with Jerry Corbit, i had received 2 of his $2,000 knives in trade. Im a perfectionist and noticed some relatively minor flaws in the knives, BUT, they were not his fault, they were things that had happened to the knife AFTER it left his shop, which he obviously cant be responsible for, and he fixed EVERYTHING free of charge. These repairs included rebluing each knife's bolsters and blade! He did it free, and i did not even buy the knives from him! What a great maker, they should ALL aspire to his level, of customer service. Plus, he just makes one hell of a knife!

To wit:
 
you do not own the design rights to this knife

by your own description you "gussied up" a stock knife for the maker. this is not really an original idea.

you would need to register or patent an original design to truly protect it or have some sort of binding agreement... contact a patent attorney for the proper course ... however, there is so little "that is new under the sun" in the knife world that i doubt it is worth the hassle or expense of doing so for most designs

the exception would be a truly innovative idea ... like a new lock or ken onion's speed safe or a new use of an unusual material...


if you are not happy with the knife return it to be fixed and only if he can't/won't fix it would i demand my money back... don't use the new knife as a pretext to demand a refund ... by your own admission you state you like the knife except for one flaw.
 
If the flaw bothers you return the knife, I don't think him making another knife is a valid point.

My first custom knife was designed by me and I supplied the stag. It was made by Art Washburn, he did a great job on it. I think Art liked the design also because he asked me to show it to Rick Dunkerly at one of the NY shows, (heck I showed it everyone at that show). Rick liked it and thought Art should add the design to his regular line of knives. I was really flattered. I've posted pics of this knife several times and one of those times one of the members here sent me an e-mail telling me how much he liked the knife and asked if I'd talk to Art about making another just like it. I spoke to Art, he said he would, but I needed to send him some pics and specs because he hadn't made a pattern of it. Well the knife was made, the customer was thrilled, but I've seen the pics of the other knife and aside from the stag being different, I'm sure I could still tell the difference between those knives with my eyes closed.

You had a lot less input on your knife than I did on mine, and I guess we look at things different.
 
Originally posted by Megalobyte
First, i would probably be flattered if a maker used my design as a pattern for future knives, id know I started it all and that would give me a kick, knowing i own and designed the original.. Plus, he just makes one hell of a knife!

To wit:
Click to expand...

That is one hell of a knife. You got some beauties in your collection!
 
Thanks Boink. The 2 Corbits i was fortunate enough to acquire in a series of, admittedly bizarre trades, which involved me trading a watch, a gun, a meteorite, and believe it or not some museum quality fossils, fossil shark teeth in particular, and viola, i end up with the 2 beautiful Corbits. Im thrilled with them, they really ARE beauties. Its lucky for me i was able to trade for them, i doubt i could have afforded their $1800 price tags outright.

Thanks for the compliment! :)
 
Thanks for everyone's input. I didn't want to go off half-cocked and I value your opinions. I'll leave the situation as is. I've had the knife so long (several months) that its not fair I return it for something I accepted so long ago. Someone stated that should be glad to have a prototype and I would be if it truely was or was ID'd as such. It was only the appearance that would have made this knife unique from any of the others he's made. It just bummed me that I thought I had something that was truly mine and now there are copies.

At the time he did thank me for helping a new knife maker so hopefully I gave him an idea he can really grow with.
 
I'm still wondering about some details you have not disclosed. What material are the handle scales, and what was the makers rationalization for the asymmetry? What exactly is the 'flaw' you are so unhappy about?

Is is poor workmanship, or simply the natural variation found in many handle materials (e.g. stag)? Does it effect the useability of the knife, or is it purely an aesthetic complaint? Did you actually handle and see the newer version of the knife with the materials and embellishments you requested? Are you really certain that this newer knife is without flaws or is better than yours? Is the price of this new version different from the price you paid?

I guess I am not convinced that your knife is truly flawed, or that the newer version you have seen is really better. It sounds like your dissatisfaction only began when you saw this newer version of your knife. It is not reasonable to expect that a maker will never use the same combination of materials you specified on another knife, especially for a standard pattern knife. You did not design the knife, only selected materials and filework.

Since you acknowledge that there was no agreement about your knife being one of a kind, I do not think you have a valid complaint unless the flaw is evidence of poor workmanship, and is not the result of normal variation in natural materials.

The use of similar materials on another knife is not grounds for complaint. Sloppy or poor workmanship is. But then, you mention that he thanked you for helping a new knife maker. Perhaps his work is simply getting better. Maybe he Did make you the best knife he could at that time, but now he is getting better? I can understand your frustration, but when you buy the work of a new maker, you have to assume that the makers work will improve over time. No maker does perfect work. One can only strive to approach perfection.

I understand your frustration, but I am not yet convinced that your dissappointment is the makers fault. Maybe, but maybe not. Talk it over with the maker and see if there is some way to make things right.

Para
 
Para, there is no problem here so there's nothing to discuss with the maker. That's why I asked you guys your opinions first. I thought I might have a complaint but I see now that I don't so it's not an issue anymore. I did not go into more detail because I bought the knife from a guy on this forum and I don't want this to explode into a big deal. I asked a general question and got reasonable responses which confirmed some thoughts I already had on my own. If you still want to discuss this let me know and I'll try to send you an email with more detail and maybe pictures. Thanks for your participation in answering my question.
 
ravenQ8,

Thanks for the way you handled this matter on the forum.

By keeping it generic and not "naming names" everyone (makers and collectors) was able to get a variety of perspectives on the matter, and it didn't have to be moved to a different forum designed for posting "complaints" as some had suggested to us it should be.

Well done.
 
I'll try to clear this up. I'm the maker raven is referring to in this thread. Raven, I'll be glad to exchange the knife I made for you with the one you see listed if you like or you can send the knife back to me and I'll refund your money. Either way works for me. I would have emailed you directly but I didn't keep your address and can't get it thru the forum. The knife you see listed is the original blade I made when making your knife, but I screwed up on the filework and had to start over. The profile of the blade is a little different since I had to grind off a little of the spine. I had no intention of upsetting you or making you feel slighted in any way by posting a knife similar to the one I made for you. I value you as a customer and want you to be happy. Please email me thams4@texas.net with your preference.
 
Blues, you're welcome. I'm still learning the about knives and the culture and the people involved in the hobby. I really tried to take the high road and wanted to be an informed consumer. Because this wasn't a complaint I felt it belonged on this forum. I needed educating and the guys did not let me down. If I knew I had a valid complaint I would have dealt directly with Phil.

Phil, I wondered how long it would take you to find this! I want you and the whole forum to know that I know you to be a class maker and would make things right if I felt slighted. I just wanted to know if I had a valid complaint. I also know that you would make it right even if I had no "valid" complaint but thought I did. I don't, so as I said before, its a non-issue. I would always deal with you first but I have an obligation to know what I'm talking about before I do. Thanks for your offer but it's not necessary. I hope I treated you fairly in this situation. I think I did but if not I apologize. Honestly, calling you an honorable knife maker is not much of a compliment because so far I haven't found any other kind!
 
Originally posted by Blues
ravenQ8,

Thanks for the way you handled this matter on the forum.

By keeping it generic and not "naming names" everyone (makers and collectors) was able to get a variety of perspectives on the matter, and it didn't have to be moved to a different forum designed for posting "complaints" as some had suggested to us it should be.

Well done.
Click to expand...

Very well done by all of you.
 
This thread ought to be posted at the top of the GB&U forum for people to read before they post there.

If more forumites would show the class and restraint shown in this thread, there wouldn't be much traffic in GB&U.
 
No problem here raven. You handled this well and I don't feel mistreated at all. You made it clear that the knife was a souped up standard model and I appreciate that. I would encourage you to return the knife to me though since you feel that the palm swell on the handle is a flaw. If that's the way you view it, then to you it is and it will bug you from now on. Life's too short to have a knife that bugs you :D
 
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