Should I change my compound?

Joined
Jul 1, 2009
Messages
506
I ordered some leather from hand american that should arrive soon.
I was wondering when I get the leather in should I change my compound to?
RIght now I'm using some $3 compound from Lowes by Task Force.
Its number 5 and it's green also its extremely smooth and waxy. (this highest grit they had still am not 100% sure on its micron) It says it's for polishing.
I was wondering if I should switch to some .5 micron Chrom Ox green bar compound.
If I should recommend me a place where I can buy a bar for cheap?
 
I ordered some leather from hand american that should arrive soon.
I was wondering when I get the leather in should I change my compound to?
RIght now I'm using some $3 compound from Lowes by Task Force.
Its number 5 and it's green also its extremely smooth and waxy. (this highest grit they had still am not 100% sure on its micron) It says it's for polishing.
I was wondering if I should switch to some .5 micron Chrom Ox green bar compound.
If I should recommend me a place where I can buy a bar for cheap?

If you are using a HandAmerican leather strop, why even use compound? The only reason to spend money for a leather strop is to be sure that you are getting properly treated stropping leather! The reason for using properly treated stropping leather is that the natural silicates in the leather are still present (not removed in the tanning process but actually enhanced by the leather treatment) which will cut even finer than your .5 micron compound. Putting compound on a good leather strop is like winning a gold medal and having it bronzed! :jerkit:

It is the natural silicates in properly made strops that do the polishing. Covering them up with compound is just that... covering up the part you are paying for!

Think about it.... Compound is for removing metal. We use smaller and smaller grades of compound to polish the metal to a finer and finer degree. The finest of all is a bare leather strop. That's why barbers use it on their razors. If you're going to use compounds, why not put them on a piece of MDF board or on any old cheap leather? After all, it's not the leather that's doing the work in that case, it's the compound. You can pick up a couple of 12" squares of MDF or other smooth board, cut them into 4" wide rectangles, put on compounds of silicon carbide 4,000 grit, silicon carbide 9000 grit, black diamond 11,00 grit, Chromium Oxide, diamond 1 micron, diamond .5 micron, (HandAmerican used to sell ALL of these compounds [except diamond] as paste in convenient jars! I still have an unopened jar of each as I thought I'd need spares. I haven't even gone though half of the originals and it's been a lot of years) and still have your nice HandAmerican strop to finish your edge on!

You've spent good money for a high quality strop from HA. The surface of that strop is properly prepared for stropping. Why cover it up? Compound has it's place in the sharpening process, but the very finest degree you can strop with is a bare strop using its naturally occurring silicates.

(Note: I have to admit to making this mistake myself. In fact, I have over a dozen different HandAmerican strops that I've bought over the past 10-15 years, each that I dedicated to a different stropping compound. That's a LOT OF WASTED MONEY. :o Then I actually learned the truth about stropping.)

Stitchawl
 
Though the leather has a natural abrasive it has very little effect on most knife steels and when it does it makes the edge almost useless for anything but shaving. Using a compound on quality leather gives you all the benefits of using leather with the cutting action of a better abrasive.
 
Though the leather has a natural abrasive it has very little effect on most knife steels and when it does it makes the edge almost useless for anything but shaving. Using a compound on quality leather gives you all the benefits of using leather with the cutting action of a better abrasive.

So should I switch?
 
So should I switch?


Yes, the compound you have is not designed for you planed uses and if you switch to chromium oxide or diamond compound you will see vast improvements.
 
Stitchawl is absolutely correct. There is no reason to put buffing compound on a good leather strop. Use the compound on cheap leather, MDF, cardboard, etc.
 
Though the leather has a natural abrasive it has very little effect on most knife steels and when it does it makes the edge almost useless for anything but shaving.

With all due respect, have you any credible sources you can cite for this? :rolleyes:

I was stropping for about 40 years using my Greatgrandfather's strop before I even knew there was such a thing as compound to use for sharpening. Oddly enough, I was able to get my knives considerably sharper than from just stones, and did not need to go to stones more than a few times a year. I never used my knives for shaving though they were sharp enough to pop hair. Just bushcraft, farm chores, and daily odds and ends. They worked well.

Fortunately I didn't ruin that old strop, but did waste a whole lot of money in later years on HandAmerican strops that I covered with HA compounds. (This is NOT to say that HA strops are bad. This IS to say that putting compound on them is covering up what makes them good!) Had I known the truth way back then I would have only had two good leather strops, (could have been HandAmerican,) neither of them having stropping compound on them, (one free-hanging and one bench mounted) and several MDF boards for compound use. Sparing compound use.

Unless one is machine stropping, or stropping several knives every day a bar of CrO2 compound the size of a MilkyWay chocolate bar will last just about one and a half lifetimes. Give or take a few years. That's for the recreational sharpener. A professional who sharpens a dozen knives every day, six days a week will obviously use more. Maybe three MilkyWay bars in a lifetime. :)
If the surface still shows some greenish tinge, the compound is still working. It doesn't have to look like springtime. In fact, too much compound creating too soft a surface limits the polishing action.

Using a compound on quality leather gives you all the benefits of using leather with the cutting action of a better abrasive.

The ONLY benefit of using leather is the natural silicates found in it. This is why the old "Russian Red" horsehide strops were so good. Horsehide has more natural silicates than cowhide (male or female,) and the "Russian Red" (which, by the way has nothing to due with the country,) is the name of the result of the method of working the leather called 'boning' which serves to bring more of those silicates to the surface of the hide.

(Boning is a process by which the leather is worked over the rounded end of a thick pole while being rubbed and pressed vigerously with the smooth end of a large cow leg bone for several hours. It makes a very supple leather whose surface is rich in natural silicates.)

Oil tanned leather and Chrome Tanned (garment) leather leach out most of the silicates from leather. Vegetable tanned leather retains them, which is why all strops are made from vegetable tanned (also called 'tooling ) leather. Putting compound onto the surface of vegetable tanned leather is absolutely no different from putting compound on to the surface of garment leather or MDF board or the smooth side of an old belt. It just costs more to purchase the leather.

While today many retailers do sell sets with leather strops and compound together, it's a good idea to remember that these folks are retailers... Their goal is to make money. They do that by selling people what people think they want. These sets weren't sold 15 years ago because there was no call for them. But people WERE sharpening knives 15 years ago and wanted perfect edges. The people who REALLY wanted perfect edges were the wood carvers, and they are the ones who began putting CrO2 onto boards to get their knives as sharp as could be. They weren't putting that CrO2 onto leather. That came with the knife sharpening crowd just a few years ago. There are plenty of cites for this in Google. Look up 'Scary Sharp & woodworking.' Right after the 2,000 grit wet/dry sandpaper they would put CrO2 onto a paint stirring stick and strop their carving knives with that.


Stitchawl
 
Last edited:
A lot of stainless steel does not respond well to stropping the way that old carbon steel used to. For those steels I do all of my real sharpening with hones and then lightly strop without compound for a slight refinement. I haven't found that the red or green buffing compound really adds much to the process for those steels. If I want to get those steels sharper I strop with diamond compound. I don't put that on leather, I put it on photo paper or plastic view graph material.
 
Stitchawl, that's really some fascinating information about different leathers; thank you for sharing it. However I agree with knifenut and Jeff that plain leather just doesn't make a satisfactory strop for stainless steels, especially those with lots of very high hardness carbides like vanadium. Proof of this comes not only from actual experience, but referring to the hardness values for silicates and those of carbides commonly found in modern stainless steels.

FWIW I'm still very fond of the older carbon tool steels. I grew up in a family having cabinetmakers going back several generations, and when I was old enough to pick up the skill I did a lot of sharpening of chisels and plane irons, as well as knives which were my own passion from early on. I've seen quite a few people since who didn't believe you could strop a quality carbon steel tool to a fine edge on plain leather alone, and I've shown a few of them that it can indeed be done. But it's a very slow process, the edge needs to be highly refined before you even begin. And even with carbon steels, IMO you get the hardness over maybe 60 HRC -- like the outstanding Hock A2 plane irons at ~62 HRC, for example -- and plain leather just isn't abrasive enough to be practical.
 
This is a fascinating thread. The micromechanics of stropping are perhaps not so simple as I had thought before. There appears to both an abrasive component (similar to stones) and an alignment component (similar to butcher's steels) that occur together.

So, what I am getting from this is that better steels (i.e. - more advanced with lots of hard carbides included) require "better leather" (i.e. - more advanced with a layer of harder abrasives than those naturally occurring in the hide) on which to strop them effectively.

It makes sense that horsehide would have silicates in it, but I never thought about it. After all, grazing animals eat grass, which is full of silicates. The adage, "You are what you eat" comes to mind.

Bill
 
The more I learn about stropping and fine-honing, the more complex it becomes.

It seems that those who are very practiced at honing straight razors will use different techniques for each of their razors. One specific razor will respond very well to CrO2, while another will shave better on a plain strop, (or diamond paste, or something else).

My solution is to find out for myself in respect to my own blades. I am trying out different compounds and substrates on each of my blades to determine what works best for me.
 
Stitchawl, that's really some fascinating information about different leathers; thank you for sharing it. However I agree with knifenut and Jeff that plain leather just doesn't make a satisfactory strop for stainless steels, especially those with lots of very high hardness carbides like vanadium.

Dog, I agree with you completly. Stainless does require a harder abrasive. There is no question about that. It's fact. All I was saying is that there is really no reason to put that abrasive onto good quality strop leather. Put the compound onto smooth MDF instead and you have a perfect sharpening device for harder steels.

The wood carvers are putting CrO2 onto free paint stirring sticks from the hardware store. Some aren't even buying actual compound, but instead purchasing flat green barn paint. (The pigment used for that is CrO2.) They paint the stirring stick and use that to strop their wood carving tools! I tried that myself a couple of years ago and found that it works just as well as the liquid Cr02 that HandAmerican was selling back in the day for a hell of a lot more than the local hardware store selling little cans of green paint! (I still have one and a half bottles of the liquid HandAmerican stuff... More than 10 years and I've used less than half a bottle of the stuff... and I was putting on waaaaaay too much in the beginning! A little goes a looooong way!)

Proof of this comes not only from actual experience, but referring to the hardness values for silicates and those of carbides commonly found in modern stainless steels.

Now here is an area perhaps you can shed some light... We've all seen and hear quite a few people talking about using red rouge for their sharpening. In this thread someone mentioned using it on his leather working knives an was able 'to instantly see the difference.' Here's the problem; red rouge is made from iron oxide. On the hardness scale, iron oxide is generally rated as 5. . Stainless steels come in between 6.5-7.5 depending upon their make-up.
Question: How can a soft iron oxide remove metal (i.e. sharpen) a hard stainless steel? Obviously, red rouge can remove the oxidation from the surface of the metal, but doesn't seem as if it can actually remove the metal itself the way CrO2 or Silicon Carbide can. Silicon carbide is rated at around 9 on the hardness scale.

FWIW I'm still very fond of the older carbon tool steels.
Me too! Me too! I don't need a space aged steel created for work on Mars for my EDC or even for my hunting knives. Give me a good carbon steel blade and I'm a happy camper. I don't carry any knives with long blades. Six inches is the very end of my need with four or five being generally more useful. I like to be able to sharpen my working knives quickly and easily, and not require special equipment to do so.

I've seen quite a few people since who didn't believe you could strop a quality carbon steel tool to a fine edge on plain leather alone, and I've shown a few of them that it can indeed be done. But it's a very slow process, the edge needs to be highly refined before you even begin.

Absolutely! Stropping on a bare leather strop is LAST STAGE of the sharpening process. Just as the increasing stone grit polishes away the scratch marks of the grit before it, so do the increasing compound grits polish away the scratch marks ( however tiny they may be) of the grits that came before it! Bare leather is the gentlest we can get to. Unless you strop on your jeans, of course! :)

And even with carbon steels, IMO you get the hardness over maybe 60 HRC -- like the outstanding Hock A2 plane irons at ~62 HRC, for example -- and plain leather just isn't abrasive enough to be practical.

Once again, I couldn't agree with you more! There certainly is a place for using the various compounds, and using them in the correct order. My only comment is that there is no reason for putting them onto good quality strop leather. Stropping leather costs money. Sure there are places that sell it cheaper than others, and we're not talking hundreds of dollars anyway, but why spend dollars when pennies will work just as well if not better?

As I stated before, if I knew then what I know now, I'd have two top quality leather strops; one free-hanging, and one mounted on a bench block. Both of them bare. I'd also have 4-5 different bench blocks with MDF tops, each coated with a different grit of various compounds. Actually, I've made this set-up in miniature, mounted on EdgePro blanks. Now that really makes for some sharp edges!! :thumbup: Truth be told, I usually don't bother to go though all of them. I just have no need to go beyond 10,000 grit. :)


Stitchawl
 
Iron oxide will abrade hardened steel. It will not abrade it as fast as compounds containing a harder medium. Hardened steel files will get dull when filing softer iron or steel.
 
Last edited:
Iron oxide will abrade hardened steel. It will not abrade it as fast as compounds containing a harder medium. .

Isn't that a bit like saying 'water will erode stone... It just takes a while.'

Would you use red rouge to sharpen your knives as your normal part of the sharpening process? Not as part of the polishing process. As part of the sharpening process?

Stitchawl
 
Ok then I'm going to stick my crap strop with green compound on it.
Then after I'm done stropping with the green go to a Chrom ox. green on some (possibly leather)
THen go to my bare stropping leather?
Where can I get a cheap stick of Chrom ox? Preferably under $7
 
I strop my straight razors and some of my knives. I shave probably (on average) 4 days a week with straights, and have for many years. I've heard lots of experts say that stropping on bare leather doesn't do anything to the edge. I beg to disagree. There is a noticeable benefit making the final strop on bare leather.

I also have the squeeze jar of HA green CrO compound, as well as a stick from Lee Valley, and most of the diamond compounds from HA. I've used them all on HA leather strops that have a magnetic backing on a formica base that they used to sell. I've had varying degrees of success. I've also spent a lot of money....

The overall best method I've found. Get a leather/linen strop such as this one, it doesn't have to be top of the line.

http://www.classicshaving.com/catalog/item/522944/196039.htm

Then get this paste:

http://www.classicshaving.com/catalog/item/6425496/6257459.htm

The paste comes in a container just like Army camo sticks. You apply it the same way, by rubbing. Rub the paste into the LINEN side of the strop. NOT the leather side.

Get your edge to a good sharpness by your normal routine. Strop it 10 - 15 times on the linen side with the paste applied. Then clean the paste off your blade, and strop it on the bare leather 20 or so times per side.

The edge will take your breath away.

I'm not affiliated with the company in any way, if you can find the paste somewhere else cheaper, go for it. Same goes for the strop.
 
I've used them all on HA leather strops that have a magnetic backing on a formica base that they used to sell. I've had varying degrees of success. I've also spent a lot of money....

Before selling the magnetic backed strops and base, HandAmerican used to sell double-sided strops mounted onto a 1/2" thick piece of corian plastic (same stuff they use for the magnetic bases,) and this double-sided unit fit snugly into a larger base holder made of the same material. You could order them in either smooth or rough leather. I have several of these double sided strops that I've messed up with an assortment of the different compounds that HA used to sell. Man, they did have a wide variety of abrasives in paste, liquid, and powder form! And like a good consumer, I bought 'em all. Usually in doubles so I wouldn't run out. Ha! I couldn't run out of even the first bottle/jar/tube if I had another 25 years to sharpen!

Then fairly recently, (5-8 years ago?) HandAmerican switched to its magnetic backed strops and I bought a bunch of them. I didn't by more compounds (from HA anyway.) Very nice, and in some ways I prefer them to the double-sided ones. They increased the variety of leathers that you could buy as well, giving the consumers even more choices and more ways to mess up a strop. I discovered them all. :o

Fortunately, messed up strops can be brought back to life. It's easy enough to remove the compounds using waterless hand cleaner. :thumbup:


That Thiers-Issard paste is great stuff! 10,000 grit and it lasts and lasts. Just don't make the mistake I did and press too hard when applying the stuff. What a mess and what a waste of compound! But when used properly, Thiers-Issard really does give a fantastic edge! After wasting almost 3/4 of a tube the first time I tried it, I went back and ordered a couple more just to give away to friends!
(I still haven't used up that last 1/4 of the first tube!)
I think it may just apply better if you refrigerate the Thiers-Issard paste before trying to apply it. It's pretty soft stuff and easy to gunk on too much in one spot. Perhaps (and I haven't tried it) if the tube were colder it might apply more smoothly.)


Stitchawl
 
Hi again, Stitchawl.

Right after entering my previous post it struck me that there might not be anything here that we're really disagreeing on -- just takes a while online like this to get the details of everyone's opinions.

I have to agree with you, "there is really no reason to put that abrasive onto good quality strop leather", and I see now that this was the real point you were making. Why use the good stuff if what you need/want is a strop that's going to be loaded with compound? Makes perfect sense to me. Obviously to a guy who knows leather the way you do, it probably seems like something of a sin to ruin quality leather by using it incorrectly. :)

You asked for my thoughts on this question: "How can a soft iron oxide remove metal (i.e. sharpen) a hard stainless steel? Obviously, red rouge can remove the oxidation from the surface of the metal, but doesn't seem as if it can actually remove the metal itself the way CrO2 or Silicon Carbide can. Silicon carbide is rated at around 9 on the hardness scale."

Actually I've thought a lot about this sort of thing lately, just in a slightly different context: that being, how can a ceramic rod sharpener like a Sharpmaker or Crocksticks, improve the edge of steels with high vanadium carbide content, when vanadium carbide is harder than the aluminum oxide ceramic of the rods? I'm no materials engineer or scientist, but my uneducated wager is that, in both cases, we see some improvement to our edges because both red rouge and aluminum oxide are harder than the actual steel matrix/substrate. The hard carbides aren't being affected at all, unless maybe a few fall or tear lose as the steel around them is removed. I've seen others say that with the really super-high vanadium steels, S90V in particular IIRC, ceramic rods/hones just won't even touch it, and I'd bet it'd be totally futile trying to strop such a steel with red rouge, for the same reason that there's just such a high carbide content, there's no real refining of the edge without using an abrasive that can actually work the carbides and not just the steel.

Anyway, those are my humble thoughts. And may I add, I'm really learning a lot from you here. Don't know if anyone else would agree, but I'd like to see a "Leather FAQ for Blade Enthusiasts" because it sure seems to me that leather "wisdom" is quickly being lost in our culture (and I'm none to bright on the topic myself, I admit.)
 
On the red rouge subject: I won't try to explain anything, but many years ago, my shop teacher showed us how to finish sharpen a chisel on a rouge wheel. It was a powered buffing wheel loaded with red rouge. It made a huge difference in chisels and knives.

I'm sure the power had something to do with it and I'd bet rouge on a hand strop would be much slower. It definitely worked on his setup.

Brian.
 
Back
Top