Should The FMA's be Kept Secret Or Promoted?

Donna, I'd like to hear your opinion actually.

What I don't want is a watered down art.
But you know what it is really?

I wouldn't want students out there who
a) Do not appreciate the serious combative background of the art they study and respect the dangers of weapons. By respect, I mean to clearly understand what weapons are meant for in combat, to kill an opponent at a distance.

b) Do not have the technical skill to execute/create/disregard techniques or drills.

c) Do not have the mindset or spirit for combat.

There's always a risk, perhaps a quality decline when you teach a large (beyond even 10 people) class. That's why most 1 hr classes of any style won't give much except a workout for most people.

The stick is a good medium and is even considered intermediate force by LEO. You can give a "spanking" or break/smash something. The only danger is in drilling yourself to death and fully depending on armor.

I've mentioned someone who doesn't teach FMA weapons anymore b/c of insurance. His lawsuit nightmare nearly came true when a newbie cut his own forehead with his own stick after attempting a block and kept bleeding. The man implicated a lawsuit but the waiver he signed was the only thing that stopped him. Surprisingly, the injured man never came back to train.

Knives are a potential insurance nightmare. Most teachers of any style won't even bring one out.
 
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[This message has been edited by jrf (edited 12-26-2000).]
 
I think this art flourishes when it is taught in backyards, garages, basements and living rooms.

All I would say to you folks is, wet your finger and put it to the wind in this country, then look at what you are teaching, promoting and saying. And remember this...

In the 1980's, Sen. Ted Kennedy with a bunch of other tyrants decided that since they could not make headway on the gun control issue, they would seize another group of "deadly weapons." That's right! Martial Arts weapons... Part of this was due to the "Ninja Craze" at the time.

Balisongs were legislated against heavily because they were shown in some movies and whatnot, they were a "hot" knife at one time, they got aced.

Now it is about 15 years later, and they are making headway in the gun control issue...and there are rumblings as to legislating martial arts under the same stupid argument, public safety, or worse yet, fraud. It matters not if it is to generate revenue or to tyrannize, the results are the same.

There are bascially two kinds of people that are anti-gun, the altruistic utopians and the oppressive.

These same people will apply the same "logic" to your art.

This segment of American Politics and Society always say, "We should be more like Britain..."

Look at Britain now, you cannot carry any knife in public unless you can prove that it is an everyday necessity at your job. All the breeds the Crown deems as "Dangerous" are to be euthanized or sterilized, which happens to be some really good Guard and Attack Dogs, all of this is from her Majesty's website of a couple years ago.

They don't care if it is a "sport" to you or for self-defense, they want all means of self-defense besides 911 to be eradicated. They have proven this time and time again. Actions speak louder then words.

Now, you Folks are in a real minority of self-defense people, the majority of gun people probably don't even like you, and the NRA would sacrifice your art in a heartbeat by putting the legislative heat on it, to save its' own sickly ass...because they have been ineffective over the past few years.

Be careful what you wish for, you just might get it.
 
WARNING: Long philosophical post

Some thoughts on what I wish martial arts is/is not:

The best teachers love their art, and genuinely care that their students learn it correctly. Frank Ortega immediately comes to mind as one who just overflows with enthusiasm. I can think of some other good examples.

Most schools are there to make money. The art gets watered down, they cater to kids, become black belt mills, very little truly effective stuff is taught because of the liability monster. These kind of schools do a great disservice. Besides creating a bad name for some formerly good martial arts, they create mini-legions of true believers who strut around town pounding on their chests claiming how great they are. "I'm a black belt!" Harumph!

Some schools seem to teach some effective techniques but do nothing to foster character and responsibility. Some of the grappling/jujutsu students I know have serious chips on their shoulders. I dunno if it's just locally or a problem with their school in general. KUNG FU THEATER MODE ON:
(Picture the bald old master talking in dubbed English) "Good skill without good heart is path to evil. Good skill with good heart path to harmony." MODE OFF

I think of IPSC pistol sport, what it started as and what it's become as a parallel. In the beginning, IPSC was a way to test your self-defense handgun skills. Now it's a full-fledged sport with flashy ESPN coverage (or at least American Shooter) with handguns and courses that don't resemble reality at all. The whole purpose is to win, not evaluate your own skills.

Sometimes I wish MA training was very selective. KUNG FU THEATER MODE ON:
Eager Young Man (EYM): "Master! Please, teach me Kung Fu!"
Wise Old Master (WOM): (looks at EYM skeptically) "So you want to learn Kung Fu? It take great PATIENCE to learn Kung Fu!"
EYM: "Master! I have patience!"
WOM: "Hmmmmm.....stand under the waterfall until I tell you to stop" (walks away and ignores EYM for a few days)

So if FMA was taught to only students of exemplary character in backyards and such, I would be comfortable with that. Unfortunately, a lot of good talent that starts out irresponsible but gets tempered into something better wouldn't get realized this way. Also, a teacher ought to be paid something for his time/knowledge. I don't know that I have an answer for too selective/too open training.

Well, now that I put everyone to sleep I'll sign off.

Edmund

 
Okay, secret or promoted are still vague terms. There are several public schools in the US that teach exotic (not universally available) styles and are 'underground' due to advertising. So is this a matter of advertising and availability?

A benefit of more publicity is in the FRIENDLY interaction between styles. I'm sorry I have to spell that out but it happens. Some might add to their style or stay traditional and learn to counter more specialized attacks. Then again, this is more individual development.

 
I'd love to see the art promoted, so long as it doesn't get watered down. Unfortunately, history seems to show that when an art is promoted it invariably gets watered down.

Rant mode on ...

Why? To be honest, IMHO it's because it gets marketted incorrectly. It gets marketted to EVERYONE as the be all, end all solution to everyone's problems. You see adds for martial arts schools saying how they can: improve your physical fitness, give you confidence, teach kids respect and resonsibility, improve kids' grades in school, yada yada yada. Of course, they do throw a blurb about self-defense in their somewhere.
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Is it just me, or is there something wrong with an add like that?
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Hmmm ... I study a fighting art to learn how to fight ... imagine that
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If you want to get in shape, go on a diet and go to a gym. If you want confidence or the "warm fuzzies" get into counselling. Parents should be teaching their kids respect, responsibility, etc and giving them confidence instead of sending the kids to "martial daycare" in the hopes that someone else will do it.
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Most people just don't have what it takes to study a real fighting art. They want to study a "martia art", but for god's sake ... don't anyone HIT them or THROW them HARD.
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If you do actually HIT OR THROW them, they might just drag your butt into court inspite of the fact that they were studying a "martial art" at the time.
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If you want to promote it that's fine, but do NOT promote it for what "joe couch potato" wants it to be. Promote is for what it IS ... A FIGHTING ART!
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In other words, promote it with a "NO WHIMPS!" attitude.
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Rant mode off...

FWIW, there is a certain amount of pain and risk (of injury) that is INHERENT in studying a martial art. I know and accept that, so I don't get mad at someone for popping me ... unless it's done maliciously or out of carelessness. I have however, seen too many people who just think that they should not get hit while practicing a "martial art". This, IMHO, shows that they really don't grasp the essence of what they're doing and therefore don't belong there.

Respectfully,

Dave.

[This message has been edited by Dave Fulton (edited 01-03-2000).]

[This message has been edited by Dave Fulton (edited 01-03-2000).]
 
hello everyone. long time no talk to!

because i am patriotic and i love my country and fighting arts, of course i want to see the arts promote, but like it was said earlier, i dont want to see the arts become more commercialize than it is now. perhaps if we keep the focus on adults in the inner city(like most boxing gyms and judo clubs) we can keep the kids out and their wining parents. i hope i dont offend anyone, but i know the family of a tae kwon do teacher named jhoon rhee who brought tae kwon do to the washington dc area i think in the 1960s. his school had a really good reputation until the late 1970s and 80s when he began to focus on kids. when you have kids you cannot teach them the same way you teach adult, some things you can teach them and some methods you cannot use with them. in the suburbs (i know this from experience) especially if you are a forienger, the parents they cant wait until they see something they dont like. i believe that is what happend to his tkd, too crititcal parents and before you know it, classes are easy, you become a cheery friendly teacher (like this dinosaur barney) and your fighting arts become all screwed up like ballet or something.

okay excuse me for rambling, but i would like to see the philippine arts get more respect as a stand alone art not supplemental (how the jkd people treat it). i think the more people that do it, and the more they participate in open competition the more experience the players will get, the art will improve more. i dont want to see two years program and testing fees and guarantee certification but i would like more people to one day say "oh you know kuntaw/arnis/etc? i bet you can kick ass!" right now they say "what, i didnt know the philippines had fighting art!" or "isnt that stick fighting?"

also, more intermingling with the different philippine styles should take place. i dont believe in secret. the more we show to somebody else, the more someone might challenge us and we have to prove it works (or adopt it ourself). either way it makes all of us better.
 
Originally posted by Donna Barnas:
The title says it all. What is your opinion?
of course they should be promoted / perpetuated .if they are kept secret or hidden then those with a sincere desire to learnmay never get the opportunity to participate in the FMA .there are about 350 tae kwon do schools in connecticut how many kali or escrima schools are there in comparison ? all arts most be exposed ,all arts must grow ,change and evolve if they are to survive .if you lock the arts away they will never grow.
Bruce Lee once said "Man is more important than Art or style. " he was right. Man is more important .Without Man the Art can not exist for the arts require a body to perform and express . man's brain will initiate and create new innovations .together his mind and body will test the art .
put simply the only way to preserve the arts is to expose them to the public! yes there is the danger that someone of low character or moral fiber may investigate the arts however that's very rare and even those that do try the arts rarely stick with it . if you do not promote the arts then they will die .
share the knowledge and let's all train. thanks ,

CHAMELEON

 
It seems like "damned if you do, damed if you don't"
I read some great views and all I can think of is the FMA has existed this far, I don't think it will ever become extinct. By having the internet, if anyone is really interested and want to learn the FMA they'll know how to find us, and make their own decisions!
I see a difference in those who train in a school and those who train backyards or basements of homes etc... it's really, overhead and no overhead! Money is almost always the issue. I always hear that the money is made with the kids, like with the "Tiger" schools, you see the commercials! what kid wouldn't want to go to that school? (Marketing, Marketing) So, Maybe those who argue to see the FMA promoted need students to fund thier schools, to keep it running. And those who don't need to maintain a facility don't want to commercialize. I may be right or wrong, but I must admit it's a bit fustrating!
I just love the art, I want to train hard, learn as much as I can, be the best and hope to pass it on to my children!
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Time will tell what will happen to the FMA.

By the way, Happy New Year!
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Wileen Arellano
Bakbakan International,NAHQ
 
I could really care less if people knew about the art or respected it. They're the ones who are missing out. A lot of other arts will add a but of FMA to their program to deal with weapons but they are missing a lot of what makes FMA's great, the unique concepts, techniques and style.

Everytime someone asks what I'm studying they have to ask a few times followed by "is that like wing chun or what is that, karate or something?" I agree with Don that the art flourishes when it is taught in backyards, garages and basements. When it becomes commercialized, the essence of the art is lost because it is very difficult to convey the subtleties of FMA to large groups. In a large class setting, you just have a lot of people swinging a stick and mimicking what the instructor is doing.

I believe that with FMA's, the instructor is passing down a deeper understanding that not everyone can suddenly have. It takes a lot of one on one training and knowledge of the culture, dance, music, etc. In some other martial arts classes and instructors I have encountered, the magic or essence of that art has all but faded.

It's selfish but I'd rather see the FMA's remain small and not get watered down. It's bad enough to have a lot of karate and kung fu people running around thinking they're the next action hero or Bruce Lee. Give them sticks and knives and that will be a disaster.

Jason
 
From my point of view, I would just as soon see FMA taught to a small number of very dedicated students, and kept out of the commercial realm. That is the simplest way to keep the arts pure and not the realm of todlers and yuppies.

That may not be the best thing for the arts themselves though. It would be all to easy to conceive of the students of a less well known family style or system, all dying off or stopping training and having the art go extinct. That would be a tragedy.

Also, some of the masters would like to be able to practice their arts full time and still be able to pay the mortgage. I cannot fault them for that.

The key is to somehow keep the ultimate goal of the art in focus, to be able to fight and win.
 
Willeen and co.

I'll go one step and address my selfishness. I want the edge in a fight, the skills and qualities to survive and ideally stop my attacker(s).

I'm currently a knife person, I train in empty hands and other weapons too. I don't say I'm an FMAer or such perhaps because I don't have this notion of prolonging the art. My focus is selfish and different and the first level Dan Inosanto talks about, self protection.

Arsenio Advincula and many others talk about by promoting and learning the arts, we can promote brotherhood and ultimately peace. This might be a stretch for some.

Ideally, the benefit of more exposure would be for a student to crosstrain, get experience, and enjoy a hobby and learn a skill. I do see FMA being promoted on a wider scale than before due to the JKD community. This isn't to knock the men and women who earn instructorship but it can make some feel queasy because now it appears mass training and possible dilution is taking effect.

So Fenris is right, keep it small and realistic as possible, keep it with the individual.
 
I'm a newbie to this forum (second post) but I have been an FMA instructor under the late Ted Lucaylucay for quite a few years. In the busy Orange County, California area it was possible to keep the art combative and pure and maintain a viable student base, that paid for the school.
After moving to the backwoods of Washington (A quality of life choice) this viable student base wasn't there. My wife is also an instructor and we really love the FMA, so we tried to open a school here. It was a money losing propostion from the start. The wife at first suggested trying belt rankings or less combative classes, etc. We ultimately decided to go to the basement school and keep it pure. A few good students and a lot less frustration.
To the comments about promoting the FMA, I try to do this whenever possible. Our license plate is KALI/JKD. In the city I have had people chase me for blocks to ask if we do FMA. The same for wearing school t-shirts. The people who are really dedicated and ultimately make the best students will find you. My son's 6th grade thesis was on the martial arts of the Phillipines, complete with a stick and blade demonstration with Dad. That was fun and no one has tried to pick on him since!
Short answer: No, let's not keep it secret. I'm proud as hell of my training and lineage and wouldn't deny it, but let's not dilute it to make it suitable for the masses.
 
Protector,

I'm glad to hear that you and your wife are dedicated to the art. The best of luck with your training and teaching!

I don't feel that everyone should immerse themself in the culture and spirituality of FMA and I first picked it up for sel-defense. I just don't want it to lose its edge.

Jason
 
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