Should we tell the truth?

[Leo Daher]

I had this posted at the "Street Experience" thread, which got hopelessly sidetracked; still, I believe it's something that should be discussed.

It has to do with an often-repeated advice: "you should never tell a cop you carry your knife for self-defense". With all due respect for those who think differently, I must say that I don't subscribe to that point of view. If confronted by a police officer while carrying, I'd rather take my chances by being as honest and straightforward as possible. After all, if I were one of them, I wouldn't appreciate people lying to me about their "tactical" folders being for peeling oranges or spreading peanut butter.

Cops do exercise personal discretion on a regular basis. If they have an autoritharian, anti-self-defense mentality to begin with, those lame excuses probably won't fly anyway.

My point of view is backed by personal experience, which I'd rather not talk about in a public forum. I know that doesn't prove anything, but it was enough for me to make up my mind about that particular scenario. Of course, YMMV.
Leo


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"Though the meek shall inherit the Earth, they won't keep it past Saturday night..."

 

[Cougar Allen]

It really isn't necessary either to lie or to risk making trouble for yourself. There's no need to be disrespectful to a decent cop or insult his intelligence with a lie. You carry that knife for a large variety of purposes. For one thing, you can slice bagels with it. If he is a decent cop he will understand you when you say that and not be offended in the least -- and if he isn't he won't be able to use it against you.

-Cougar :{)

You never know when you might come across a bagel that needs slicing.

 

[Leo Daher]

I understand what you're saying, Cougar, and there's merit to it; however, two things come to mind:

1- If there is no law against carrying that knife, it shoudn't be a problem and you shouldn't have to justify it; OTOH, if said knife is illegal for some dumb reason (blade lenght, action, whatever - it's always a dumb reason, IMHO), I don't think it would make a difference what you say your reason for carrying it is. That's when his discretion comes to play, and that's when I'd rather be 100 percent honest.
2- If, like myself, you carry one in each front pants pocket, it gets a little more difficult, though admitedly not impossible, to claim utility purposes.
The bottom line, I believe, is being respectful, never cocky or subservient (big mistake too, IMHO). I think it pays to let them know, in a sensible way, what you stand for, if you believe it to be fair and just; of course, like everything else in life, there's a chance it won't work. Life is taking chances, after all...
Leo

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"Though the meek shall inherit the Earth, they won't keep it past Saturday night..."

 

[Cougar Allen]

What you say can make all the difference! Hang around a courthouse for a day and you'll see one person after another convicted only because he opened his big fat mouth and said something he had no need at all to say. There is a reason why every lawyer in the world will tell you never say ANYTHING until you talk to your lawyer....

I understand where you're coming from. I absolutely refuse to tell a lie myself -- I'm a fanatic about it -- but fortunately we are not faced with a choice between lying and going to jail. There's no need to lie -- but there's no need to say something that will force a decent cop to make an arrest against his inclination. Just give the cop a chance.

I'll give a specific example -- some states have a law on the books (usually dating from the 19th century) that says it's illegal to carry a knife "with the intention of going armed." Now, say you're in one of those states and you tell a cop you're carrying those knives for the purpose of self-defense -- now, what have you just done to that cop? Assume he's a perfectly decent fellow who believes in the inalienable right of self-defense -- you have forced him into an ethical dilemma. Either he violates his oath or he violates his beliefs. Do you call doing that to him being respectful? Think he'll appreciate that?

Another example: In his youth Mad Dog McClung found himself in a conversation with a cop (I don't really remember the circumstances, but I think it was after Mad Dog had defended himself with a knife and made a citizen's arrest). Mad Dog and the cop were getting along fine until Mad Dog referred to his knife as a Bowie and then suddenly an argument developed. The cop said, "That's a hunting knife, right?" And Mad Dog replied, "No, it's a Bowie knife." After going back and forth like that several times Mad Dog finally let the cop have his way. It wasn't until later that he found out what that argument was about -- carrying a Bowie is illegal in Texas....

Don't lie to a cop. Don't insist on grabbing the handcuffs off his belt and putting them on yourself either. Just give the cop a chance.

Language is fuzzy ... no two of us can agree on exactly what a Bowie knife is ... we carry knives for so many purposes if we tried to list them all we'd be standing there telling the cop what we carry the knives for all day ... heck, for weeks ...



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-Cougar Allen :{)
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This post is not merely the author's opinions; it is the trrrrrruth. This post is intended to cause dissension and unrest and upset people, and ultimately drive them mad. Please do not misinterpret my intentions in posting this.

 

[Leo Daher]

I'll give a specific example -- some states have a law on the books (usually dating from the 19th century) that says it's illegal to carry a knife "with the intention of going armed."

I do realize you should avoid commiting an indiscretion if, say, you're forced to defend yourself, but I wasn't aware of the existence of such a law. That certainly is something to take into account (and one more reason why we should be knowledgeable about local legislation, even if for moral/practical reasons we're forced to disrespect it).
Thanks for letting me know.
Leo

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"Though the meek shall inherit the Earth, they won't keep it past Saturday night..."

 

[cerulean]

Yeah, just to vouch for what C. Allen said, there are a lot of states in the US that basically allow knives to be carried but don't allow "weapons". In some cases, the prosecution will have to prove that the knife is a weapon.

That's difficult to do. You can try to say that the knife is a weapon per se (meaning that it's clearly designed to be used as a weapon), but it's hard to prove. However, it's easy to prove that it's a weapon if:

A.) The knife is actually used as a weapon, or
B.) The defendant freely admits that it's a weapon.

************

If a cop thinks you have commited a crime, he may use subtle psychological tricks on you to get more information from you. He may even lie to you outright. There's nothing wrong with that; it's just part of the job. So, if there's no problem with an officer using a little psychology on you, why can't you use some on him?

If a LEO asks me, "Why do you have this knife on you?", I could provide one of two answers.

Answer #1 - "I might need it to stab someone in the face, sir."
Answer #2 - "I might need it to cut some tape or open boxes, sir."

Both of those answers are technically correct. I certainly hope to God that I never have to actually hurt someone with a knife and I doubt I ever will. However, it's possible that I might have to use a knife for self-defense. Of course, it's also possible (and much more likely) that I might need a knife to complete some routine chore like opening boxes or cutting tape. So, I would chose to answer with #2. It's not a lie; just a little spin control.

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Cerulean

"We cut things to create things" - J.K.M.

[This message has been edited by cerulean (edited 01-22-2001).]

 

[Don Rearic]

I am torn on this issue.

I think I want a Perfect World where Police Officers understand that they are not the only ones at risk in a society that is open and has alot of freedom, alot of knives and guns and other nastiness.

It's not going to happen.

I would like for every Police Officer to know in their heart that they are not the only ones gifted with the right to use force, if necessary, up to and including lethal force for Defensive Purposes.

Again, it's not going to happen. I don't think that anyone wants to lie about the purpose of their knife, it just ends up being the most logical thing to do.

In the other Thread (Whoa...the "other" thread, has an ominous ring now

) what I was trying to say was, many of us live under a convenient fiction. That fiction being that we have a basic, Civil Right to Self-defense. That is simply not so. If it were, then there would not be a need to lie about things. In about half the States, you do have that right and they might restrict the number of different things you can carry, you can still pack some awesome combinations of firearms and edged weapons.

What about the other ones that have not passed, "Shall Issue" Concealed Carry Laws? Well, you can defend yourself in your home. That is great! Not so great when you are out on the street...

An imperfect world calls for imperfect solutions that happen to be the most expedient and with an eye towards keeping you out of cuffs, out of the local precinct house and criminal record free.

There are alot of Police Officers who are not the problem either. Sadly, take a Bladeforums Member who lives in say, one county in California and another Member who is a LEO in the same County...what are the chances on the Member getting pulled over by "The Enlightened One?"

Never volunteer information.

If your knife is basically a legal item to carry as a non-weapon, go with that and don't tell them it is a weapon. They already know it has the potential as a weapon because they have already seen horrid things on the street, like people killed with gardening shears. They are not fooled and sometimes...they just want to know that you are an OK person and they want to get on to some real crime.

Now...there are cops that automatically go into fruitbat mode if they think they have what they consider to be a "Rambo" on their hands.

"Oh? You can defend yourself with that huh?"

Face it, there is a great prejudice against edged weapons. Accept it, deal with it and move on.

 

[PBPC]

If you really want to be street savy, DON'T TALK TO THE COPS! If you pull a knife in self-defense, don't answer any questions from the police. You will only get yourself into trouble. Will they throw you in jail? Yes. It is better to be thrown in jail and have your lawyer talk for you. The police can miscontrue things during their questioning. Remember anything you say can be used against you. They can't use what you don't say against you. Getting arrested and being detained should be an expectation of yours, if you plan to use any weapon or even your fists in self-defense. When you use self-defense, this is what you say to the cops:

1. Name and I.D.
2. It was self-defense or I have not done anything wrong.
3. I want an attorney
4. I am not going to answer any questions.

Fact is that I have known a number of certain self-defense cases where the police have miscontrued the situation. If you have just killed or hacked a criminal attacker in self-defense, you will be feeling an adrenaline rush, your whole body and senses will be experiencing an overload. This is not the best time to be answering questions from police who might try and trip you up.

I will recommend to anyone who plans to use self-defense that they have know of a lawyer in the area that deals with such matters, especially self-defense with firearms, knives and illegal weapons. Sometimes local Public Defense attorneys can't hack cases like this, you need a specialist. Are such lawyers expensive, yes, but so is maintaining your life and dignity. Put your money into a self-defense lawyer fund in case this ever comes up. I have. Also know of some local bondsman and how the bail system works and what type of questions the pre-trial services people will ask you. Pre-trial services deals with releasing people, without bail, as long as they are not considered a flight risk.

In a non-self-defense situation and a police officer asks why are you carrying that mean looking folding knife what do you do?

I've never been asked this question or known anyone who has. You have a number of options. Silence is certaintly one of them, its your constitutional right. Will he get suspicious...maybe...maybe not. A cop knows the Bill of Rights and can't fault you for exercising it. Remember: You what you don't say, can't hurt you. Another option is to say this: "The knife is exposed, its legal to carry and I'm not doing anything wrong."
If you are really concerned, get a copy of the penal code and copy the part about knives. Memorize the penal code numbers that allow you to carry the knife that you are carrying. Tell him: "UM...under Penal code blah blah says I am allowed to carry a folder under 3 inches." Talk the law and the cop will probably listen. You shouldn't have to give reasons, give him the law. Carry a copy of the knife penal code on your person. You could tell the cop you have a copy of the penal code on you. I'm not sure thats a good idea, it could be construed as a challenge. But it might help you in court. Your lawyer could say: "Look my client knows the law, he was carrying a copy of the penal code knife law on his person." This could make you look good, because it will show the cop did not know the law. He took you in for carrying a legal weapon. Just a thought

To be on the safe side, it is a wise idea not to carry illegal knives or weapons. I carry a weapon that is considered illegal, but I have a CCW permit that allows me to do so. If you carry an illegal weapon or knife that is concealed, thats a whole new ball game. Silence is crucial, don't talk. Its your constitutional right.

Remember as long as you blend in with the crowd and don't cause a stir, cops will generally leave you alone. If you are clean-cut and walking in a bad neighborhood and a group of armed hoodlums jumps you and you pull a knife in self-defense, a good chance is that the police officers will know that you were not the aggressor. But it is crucial that you don't answer questions, let your lawyer do that for you.

I've worked closely with police officers and prison guards for years. Generally they are average Joes just like you and me. They know that citizens carry weapons for self-defense and they do also. Most police officers believe that a citizen has a natural right to self-defense and can carry "legal" weapons to exercise that right. If a police officer doesn't believe that, then they should not be a sworn officer, period. The fact is in this country, police are not obligated to protect you. When you dial 911, no cop is required by law to come to your house. The Supreme Court has ruled that as a fact. Cops know this and know that citizens are pretty much left to fend for themselves in the cold/dark urban jungle. I think any good cop will expect any clean-cut citizen that he sees to be carrying some kind of defensive tool be it impact or edged.