Showdown RC5 vs Swamp Rat RatManDu (RMD) vs S1

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soapboxpreacher

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Apr 3, 2010
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RAT RC5 is a stout thick, heavy, 5" chopper and baton blade with a very nice sheath. It is crafted in 1095 steel 1/4" thick blade with a full tang and full flat grind. Micarta Handle and a protruding pommel tang. 16oz! Rat has an excellent warranty comparable of to the Swamp Rat.

vs

Swamp Rat RatManDu (RMD) is a super sharp stay sharp SR-101 Steel 5+" Blade that is 3/16" Thick with a protruding tang with lanyard hole, Micarta Handle, Same warranty coverage as RAT no sheath (but blackhawk and others make excellent sheaths options for this blade). No known weight spec I could find.

vs

Fallkniven S1 VG-10 5+" blade with a .2" thick blade, Thermorun checkered handle, zytel sheath which (I have an A1) I think it is just ok but is light and small. The Blade is probably the lightest of the bunch 6.7 oz and has a flat protruding tang. This blade I would think would be the packers/hikers best friend! The weight is right the steel is stainless and the sheath as far as it is, is small. But it probably lacks the chopping and precise whittling because of the grip limitations more so compared to the grip youcan put on the RMD but I am yet to prove that. As for Warranty...nowhere near the others.

I believe all these blades are excellent however I only have one the RC5 (an A1 which is close). As for My RC5 I can say the handle is big and boxy but seems to work, I have not felt hot spots using it. My grip style (Depending on the task whether chopping or slashing) works well however from what I have seen of the RMD is the semi circle cut near the finger guard on the blade seems to offer pluses and a minuses. Chopping and batonning probably wouldnt be as good...for one not as much blade surface nor I believe (this is a guess based on blade thickness) weight...the RMD should be lighter leaving the S1 at a chopping 3rd place but yet again I cannot confirm. As for the grip shapes, I like the RMD better (never held it but it looks less boxy and slightly smaller). As for the S1 it has the same checker pattern as the A1 so it would feel nearly the same. But I believe the S1 would be better in wet hands than both. Most of us dont try to handle or use our knives when our hands are wet. But sweat is a different unpreventable situation for some. As for whittling wood and precise bushcraft the S1 and even the RMD blade should be less clumsy due to weight and blade design and more so grip and grind. Sure rough shaving the RC5 is a hungry eater but fine detail...I am not sure. As for Steel...they are all good but some have limitations. The SR-101 is a steel that holds its edge better if not the best of all steels including INFI. VG-10 is the best all around elements friend blade...no rust! And the 1095 is the easiest to maintain.

So sound off on your Pick and why. And certain offer your experience if you have all or even any of these blades. I only have the RC5 and an A1...which is very close to the S1 but is still different. Let me know. I think these are the cream of the crop of the 5" pack. I left out the BK2 because it has an inferior handle...nowhere near the others...I know you can add the Micarta but then you up the cost to these blade class in which I believe all to be better.
 
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I owned a RC-5 and still own a RatManDu. The RC-5 was too thick for me so I sold it. It was just too thick to really be useful. The RatManDu out performs the RC-5 in every way (my humble opinion). In fact, I just ordered another RatManDu. Get in while the pre-order is still open. :D
 
I figured but I am torn between the The RatManDu and the S1. I like the size of the S1 much better. Seems like a "if I had to carry one and only one blade" it has weight, size, and corrosion protection that make it an better all around blade. Do you have some dimensions on the RMD? I want to compare them. S1 seems to really be a very popular and favorite among many.
 
As for Steel...they are all good but some have limitations. The SR-101 is a steel that holds its edge better if not the best of all steels including INFI. VG-10 is the best all around elements friend blade...no rust! And the 1095 is the easiest to maintain.
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SR101 is merely 52100 bearing steel. Not all that much different an alloy from 1095, but different enough to be a different steel. I like it and have since I was a kid. I have some older Marbles knives made of it. It takes a great edge, and holds it ok.

The part I have in Italics confuses me though. These class of steels aren't really noted for tremendous wear resistance like some of the other alloys, but are more known for toughness.

Here are 1095 and 52100 ( SR101) http://www.zknives.com/knives/steels/steelgraph.php?nm=%2C1095%2C52100&gm=0
 
The Mastiff said:
SR101 is merely 52100 bearing steel. Not all that much different an alloy from 1095, but different enough to be a different steel. I like it and have since I was a kid. I have some older Marbles knives made of it. It takes a great edge, and holds it ok.

The part I have in Italics confuses me though. These class of steels aren't really noted for tremendous wear resistance like some of the other alloys, but are more known for toughness.

Here are 1095 and 52100 ( SR101) http://www.zknives.com/knives/steels/steelgraph.php?nm=,1095,52100&gm=0
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It must be the way they HT that sr101 then because it holds a edge for a good amount of time.
 
It must be the way they HT that sr101 then because it holds a edge for a good amount of time.
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Well, it is a good steel. It performs well in all the knives I've had it in, especially at RC 62 in the Spyderco mule. It's very tough too.

I guess edge retention is different from wear resistance then as it's not in the same category as M4, S90V, S110V, S125V, etc wear resistance wise. Aside from M4 I wouldn't consider those in the same category as 1095, and 52100 toughness wise though. These two steels are similar IMO in that they get most of their really great performance when run harder. Example, 1095 at RC 55 is no great shakes but at RC 59 thru 65 it can really perform. 52100, same story IMO.

Most of the bearing steels I've tried have made great blades IMO. My only exception is 440C, which I have heard used for them. It's an ok steel to me, but not really great at anything except corrosion resistance due to the large grain size. BG42 is an excellent blade steel IMO, but it is really a stainless version of M50 , which makes it a high speed stainless bearing steel.

I am looking forward to trying the CTS Powder steel cersion of 440C. Sal has stated the performance is noticeably better than ingot 440C.

My opinions anyway. Not trying to put any one brand down but I do feel renaming a steel for marketing purposes is kind of silly. Especially one as good as 52100. It needs no sexing up.
 
Do not have the RC5. Would like too though. I do own a Ratmandu and had an
S1.

I like Falkniven but i like the Ratmandu much better than my S1. The grip is much better to me. I have small hands and the S1 handle still felt small. I do believe the S1 is easier to conceal. I flipped my beltloop on the sheath down and could carry reversed IWB.
 
knifenut1013 said:
It must be the way they HT that sr101 then because it holds a edge for a good amount of time.
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It IS the Heat Treat that makes Busse and Busse-Kin knives amazing. What they do with SR-101 is fantastic.

soapboxpreacher said:
Iboschi

What sheath did you get for the RMD? And what is the weight like on it?
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I had a sheath made by a fellow forumite Snakedoc. I wanted a kydex sheath that could be taken apart so it could be cleaned. He also attached a survival pouch to it, and added a firesteel loop. Frankly, IT ROCKS! I've been meaning to do a review on the sheath because it is so awesome but have been busier than I'd like (such is life). I'll get it up soon.

The RatManDu weighs in at 9.8 Ounces on my scale. It is probably my favorite knife in that size category. I uploaded some crappy cell pics of the sheath + Knife. If you have any more questions feel free to ask away or PM me.

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I own a RC5 and have no desire to seek anything better. I trust my very being to this knife on a daily basis and it never ceases to perform. For the hundred bucks I spent on it I don't need another beater.
 
The RatManDu actually comes in less than the RC-5 too, but without a sheath, you'll have to pick up your own, but 5 inch sheaths can be had on the cheap. Something like what comes with the RC-5 can be bought from Scrapyardknives.com on the CHEAP.
 
It IS the Heat Treat that makes Busse and Busse-Kin knives amazing. What they do with SR-101 is fantastic.
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Any idea what is different from other manufacturers heat treats?

What sort of performance increases do you see, and how do you measure them.

52100 is not a new steel. The bussekin knives aren't new to me either. I love them, but I'm not really sure what kind of difference you are seeing. To me it's 52100 steel in a high quality knife. So are some of my other 52100 knives though too.
 
There aren't many references to specifics in the Busse heat treat. Mostly hints and suggestions. The evidence is really in user experience over time. Look at the writing on the wall in any of the Busse forums. SR-101 is written there with praise. Here's a bit of tangible evidence that someone quoted to me just recently:
JenniferBusse said:
...........
In regards to your other inquiry, I am not at liberty to disclose our specific heat treating protocol, but I can tell you that we are able to maintain a continuous quench that takes our D-2 tool steel down to -300 degrees below zero. This is done in a dry atmosphere over the course of nearly 70 hours, which includes the slow trip back up. We will perform a minimum of three oven tempers and our very specialized heat treating protocol takes over 80 hours to complete. In studies performed by one of the pioneers of dry, slow cycle, deep cryogenics, D-2 experienced in excess of a 1,000% increase in tool life.!!! We agree that the secondary curve offers greater toughness. That's all I can say for right now. ;) Thanks for your interest. :)

Jennifer
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More on Cryo: http://www.angelswords.com/cryo_basics.php
 
I have an RMD. an RC5 and a Fallkniven F1.

The handle on the RC5 is the thickest of the bunch (of course) I find it very comfortable and it provides a very good secure grip for heavy cuts etc.. It is well designed to aid in the knifes use in a variety of grips. The contouring done in manufacturing is excellent and it gives no hot spots in use.

The RMD handle is well designed fairly comfortable (though less hand filling than the RC5). Provides a good grip in all positions, and a secure grip in use. The choil allows for chocking up on the blade, however I don't see much benefit for it on a blade this size (on a 10 incher it is a desireable feature but on this blade I think it detracts from its use).

I don't have the S1 but the handle of the F1 and S1 are the same. While the smallest handle of the 3 it is surprisingly comfortable though not all that hand filling it is shaped is such a way that it locks the handle into the grip. It is comfortable in all positions as well.
The Thermorun is of a higher durometer hardness than the kraton used in many other makers handles and is durable without the sticky feeling of kraton. It is the only handle which provides insulating value to the hand which is greatly appreciated in extreme cold conditions.

As to steels:

1095 as done by Rowen is excellent it easily takes a very sharp crisp edge and holds it well. More importantly it easily resharpens in the field. I have convexed the edge on my RC5 which improves it's performance, but that is a personal preference.

52100/ sr101 also takes a fantastic crisp edge holds it a bit longer while still being easy to resharpen in the field.

VG10 on Fallkniven surprised me. For a stainless it takes a very excellent edge and holds it reasonably well. It sharpens easily in the field making it very easy to maintain a razor sharp edge.

The RC5 is a fantastic knife for hard, extreme use. While some would call it heavy I find that once one uses it for just a little time the weight is a non issue. If I were physicaly so weak as to not be able to carry a 16 oz. knife in to the woods then I would not be haealthy enough to be out there anyway. The abscence of a coil makes this knife very handy to use and I can still choke up on the balde for detail work if needed. It is meant to be a knife to be abused in extreme situations and it will take everything you can throw at it.

The RMD is a great knife, It has become my EDC fixed blade edging out the RC4 from that role. Minly due to it's better handle. It is one tough knife while being a little easier to carry than the RC5 (I made a horizontal carry sheath for it). It is an excellent performer which takes and keeps an exceptional edge. It is an excellent compromise for extreme use and ease of carry. But I wish that it didn't have the choil.

I don't have an S1, but it will probably be my next Fallkniven. If one is going to spend much time in cold/arctic conditions especialy it would be an excellent choice.

All three knives are exceptional products from fine companies. All of them will fill every need of a blade of this size without missing a beat. I prefetr the choilless design of the RC5 and the S1, but the RMD is not hamperd in performance in any way.

With skilled use All three will serve exceptionaly well.
 
I noticed alot of people sell their RMD. I have also seen tip failures...throwing up some caution moving forward. The Choil (hope I am using that term correctly) is big...maybe too big. The more I handle the RC5 the more I am liking it. Initially I wasnt as crazy about it for size and weight but as I cut with it and chop...it is a bad ass! One thing I noticed..my RC5 came from the factory as the sharpest blade of my collection. Sharper and more evenly sharp than Kabars, Cold Steel, Fallkniven, Sog (Gone), Gerber (Gone) Ontario and Mora. Plus I found my grip even with the small Choil is just enough to make it more maneuverable then I originally thought on first grab for its size and weight. Since I already have an A1 and not overally fond nor disappointed in the sheath I think I will hold off on the S1. They all are excellent knives. Priced very similar but as much as I originally hated the blocky micarta grip I noticed one HUGE benefit!!! No really hot spots!! My A1 handle checkering is chewing up my hands a bit. But man does that knife stay in your hand!!! Like GLUE! As for the boxy rc5, you can shape them, didnt realize til later that micarta can be shaped (I guess there is some care and precautions to take but it is done often). As for RAT I also cant ignore the Warranty. It really is the best! No worry!

I am considering a RC4 to join the family...gonna see how the Bravo 1 and the RC4 perform. I like the choil for handling and the sheaths are pretty nice. This is an awesome whittler (I believe) and I see it used for light chopping and batonning. Considering the sharpness of my RC5 I can imagine the RC4 will be there too! The weight seems right. Originally I thought their sheaths were too big but they lock nice and secure, clip easy and dont hold water. Big enough to re-secure the blade without looking too long at the sheath to get the blade in properly. The molle goes nice with my tact vest. So the RC4 would fit it nice, not too big not too small! I dont like the small finger guard on the F1 (and forget the H1 for that matters)...I know this is more of a 5" thread and I apologize for straying but it is coming back to my point about RAT...they are an excellent company. Great warranty and a great product. I believe the Swamp is up there too. But Fallkniven needs to wake up in the warranty department. They also cost more. I would have liked small choil near the finger guard and some thumb serrations on the top edge on the A1 for when the blade length starts getting up there it makes it easier to maneuver in detailed work, feather sticks, spoon carving, and small whittling. But I will say in a fight the A1 is what I would grab (in the under 6" category (Doesnt have a guard but I dont think it would matter...its weight and my speed...forget about it! It also batons like a CHAMP...and chops well too! Just whittling...not as good. At least I havent found my grip yet...so this is why I am at least in a holding partner on the S1. although I think they are really great knife! Couple of design changes and I think I would have the best.

But back to this thread...are we missing a 5" blade here? Some would say the BK2 but I dont find it is in the same league IMHO as the others...maybe if you add the micarta handles but the warranty isnt as good as 2 of the 3 mentioned, the sheath...isn't bad but I have heard the fit and finish is lacking but it is a knife certainly priced right!!!! I just dont like their grivory handles....they have GOTTA GO!!! They transfer shock, are slippery, and I have seen numerous screws fall out of the front! That is why I didnt throw it in the vs. So back to my questions is there another 5" that deserves to be compared here? If I could have all of them...I would certainly know which one. But each of use have different uses. So this thread can be fairly subjective not to mention I am still very new here and these are merely my observations based on my limited experience. So I apologize for that.
 
SR101 from all my experiance rusts more easily than 1095. I like the fact that both ESEE/Swamp have the same excellent warranty. I don't like the Busse business plan from a customer standpoint(but that doesn't affect the knife performance). You can get a 5 today, tomorrow or next month. Also, they cost less... Shop around.

Both the 5 and RMD are not going to slice like a Fiddleback Forge Woodsman, etc etc. I'm not going to abuse my FB Forge ever either. So again, different knives for different jobs.

A sharp .25" knife will gut the snot out of whitetails. Thing is it has to be...sharp.
 
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