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V

V44

Joined
Feb 10, 2000
Messages
91
Went straight for da Man's table at the NY Show, saw that he had what I longed for sitting right there in front of me, looked away for a minute to find my buddy, and you know the rest of the story...

I do like to touch it before I buy it, know what I mean? I don't like surprises through the mail. I know I can send it back to CRK if I order, wait, receive, and find some little thing not quite (?) right; but that process seems somehow to be expecting something wrong. What's the liklihood of a CRK product needing to be returned right out of the box? I have looked through many threads and found this is a problem with such touted manufacturers as Spyderco and Benchmade, particularly with some of their models. But what about over here? Am I better off buying at a show or from across a store counter? I realize that you could answer by saying if I am that particular then I should just go to where I can see the actual item. That's not exactly the answer I am looking for. What I'd really like to know is a rough percentage of CRK products that need to be returned because of some perceived defect: 1 out of a 100? or what? This is not meant to be a criticism of CRK or in any way an indictment of his quality control. I met him, like him, have wanted a Seb for years, ever since seeing one about 8-10 years ago, and am in a position to get one finally, so am just inquiring from you guys what's the best way to get one, since I messed up a few days ago? Thanks for any help you can give to me (and PLEASE do not take offense at my asking...I have seen how, shall we say, sensitive many of you are).

 
Ordered mine through CRK, it was perfect! I would think problems are substantially less than 1 in 100.

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It's only a mistake if you fail to learn from it!
 


Order one through a dealer and ask him to inspect the knife prior to shipping.

It worked great for me.

Cecil Self at Arrow-Dynamics.com is a great place to start your hunt.



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I'm not nutz, I've just gone sebenza!

Shep
 
I'm one of the unlucky few that recieved a bad Sebenza.
frown.gif
I got it just over a month ago. Must've just slipped through. Its impossible to unlock so I emailed Bridget and now I'm bringing it with me to the Blade Show so that CR can see it in person. I cant wait. I dont trust the post you see.

JD
 
I would say the chances are very low. Stuff does happen, so it's possible, but I think unlikely. I've seen many high end custom pieces that didn't have the fit, finish and performance of the Sebenza.

------------------
Paul Davidson

Them:"What's that clipped to your pocket, a beeper?"
Me:"Uuh....yeah, something like that."
 
Originally posted by Paul Davidson:
I've seen many high end custom pieces that didn't have the fit, finish and performance of the Sebenza.
Click to expand...

Paul, although my experience is limited to examining knives at brick and mortar shops and at shows, I have trouble testing a knife before having purchased it. I can look it over pretty closely, but as far as testing even the lateral sturdiness of the blade, I am afraid that the dealer's close scrutiny limits my handling to just a cursory inspection. What I would like to check is the tighness of the lockup. Other than that I can tell about alignment of the blade between the lines by eye, and I can open and close the blade to determine the action. However, I can not bring myself to flick a knife open before I buy it, even though I would try this once I did purchase it. Even if I did not use this method all the time, I still would like to see how it works. If I ask the dealer about trying it before I buy it and he says yes, then I'd try it, but I haven't gone this far yet. I guess my problem is a common one--playing with a knife before I've bought it, to see how much I really like it. I also guess this is why so many individuals on these forums sell hardly used knives. Anyway, I tried two of the small undecorated Sebs that Mr Reeve had on his table at the NY Show and one was rougher in opening than the other. I suppose one was more handled and broken in, given what I know about lubrication and phosphorous bronze. BTW everything that folded was sold out in a matter of minutes--OK perhaps slightly longer--except for a NFS large, undecorated, Seb, numbered 1 or 200 (I think), in the Classic 2000 version. Oh yes, there was one lefty undecoratred Umfaan left on the table on Saturday afternoon the last I saw, looking a bit forelorn next to a line of one pieces. Mr Reeve had gone to do some judging, I think, and had turned his table over to a friend to watch over it, and this friend, when I went by the final swing by, showed me the stapled sheets of what Mr Reeve had brought to the show and all the check marks on what had sold. Lots of check marks. Also didn't mention this, but Mr Reeve re-para-corded a number of previously sold Umfaans while I stood by commiserating over what I had missed out on. Guess it won't be too long before I correct this.
 
As a Chris Reeve dealer I have sold many of his products and have never had one that needed to be sent back for anything. That is a lot of knives, for I have been selling his products now for over two years and it is my best selling line. His quality control is so good that the chance of your having a bad knife out of the box is extremely small.

If you follow the advice of Shep and order from a dealer, it is almost zero, as we inspect the knives when we receive them and, if there is a problem, it goes right back. I have never had to do that with any of the many Sebenzas that I have received.

You will probably get your knife quicker, too, if you go through a dealer as many of us have them in stock, ready to ship. Usually, there is a wait if you go direct to CRK.

As far as testing a knife at a table or in a store, that isn't usually a problem with me. Radical "tests" like trying to fold a knife sideways to "test for wobble" or spine rap tests are not acceptable but a close inspection and examination are encouraged.

Heavy latteral pressure isn't necessary on a folding knife to test for blade tightness as a slight side to side wiggle will expose any blade play. If there is none, then trying to fold a knife sideways won't tell you anything. Knives aren't designed to fold that way and enough latteral pressure will damage almost any folder. Don't do it.

Spine rap tests are a definite no-no. They can actually damage a lockback or a locking liner folder and are a false indicator of lock integrety. In my book, that is abuse and will void most warranties.

I don't think it would void a CRK warranty and I'm sure any Sebenza would pass such a test but it is absolutely unnecessary and foolish to try.

DW

------------------
Dennis Wright
Wright Knife & Sporting Goods
1-800-400-1980
("Have a knife day!")
wrightknife@ixpres.com

[This message has been edited by Dennis Wright (edited 03-14-2000).]
 
Originally posted by Dennis Wright:
Radical "tests" like trying to fold a knife sideways to "test for wobble" or spine rap tests are not acceptable but a close inspection and examination are encouraged.

Heavy latteral pressure isn't necessary on a folding knife to test for blade tightness as a slight side to side wiggle will expose any blade play. If there is none, then trying to fold a knife sideways won't tell you anything. Knives aren't designed to fold that way and enough latteral pressure will damage almost any folder. Don't do it.

Spine rap tests are a definite no-no. They can actually damage a lockback or a locking liner folder and are a false indicator of lock integrety. In my book, that is abuse and will void most warranties.


DW
Click to expand...
Thank you Dennis. Actually I never considered heavy lateral pressure or spine rapping. In fact until I read about it on these forums I had never heard of spine rapping as a test. Knives are made to work in one direction, but if they do have a lock-up, then one would expect it to work under ordinary use. What would be an appropriate way to test the integrity of a lockup?

As for me, I've had more accidents with the screwdriver closing on me on my scout or SAK than I've ever had with a blade closing on me. (Old Cub Scout knives had locks for the spear blade and I believe for the screwdriver as well, and the electricians pocketknives from Camillus had a lockup for the the combined wire-stripping and screwdriver blade, as I recall).

For tactical situations I suppose a locking folder is a step in the right direction, though I have no experience in this aspect of things.

Blade wobble is the main worry I have, and the thing I would like to guard against when I purchase a folding knife. Gentle lateral pressure will reveal such looseness if it is present, and will indicate a slip up some where along the line. I certainly don't mean anything more than gentle pressure to detect wobble.

Despite all that has been said about locking blades, I really haven't had any occasion to need one in 50 years of knife handling. I don't know why they are there except for perceived safety. But I will put up with locks to gain the advantage of one-handed opening and closing. If a lockup is so marginal that that there is a chance of the blade closing on its own from gravity, then this obviously is a probably, a defect, or a worn out knife. If liner locks tend to slip off the tang due to wear or the ergonomics of design and hand grip, then that too is problematic, and ought to be brought to our attention on these forums.

Lastly, on the Sebs I handled at the show, the new ones had those little hills along the the relieve, whereas the classic does not. I don't know the reason for the those bumps or whether they serve anything more than a design function. Could you enlighten me on this?

Thanks for your consideration and sound advice.


[This message has been edited by V44 (edited 03-14-2000).]

[This message has been edited by V44 (edited 03-14-2000).]
 
V44, Glad to see that you understand the real purpose of a knife. I'm serious, it's obvious that you know that a knife is a cutting tool and that the forces inherent in that endeavor don't require locks and gadgets. Having said that, though, I do feel that if a lock is present it must work. Otherwise it gives a false sense of security as in the Boy Scout knives and the TL-29s (electrician's knives) that you mention.

The only test needed to ascertain that the locks do work is to put steady pressure on the back of the blade while holding the handle firmly. I strongly recommend wrapping the blade with a chamois or other material to prevent injury if the lock does fail. Also, know that if you can make the lock fail like that (and you can if you apply enough pressure)it will continue to fail. Once the lock has been compromised it will no longer be reliable.

Chris's integral lock won't fail under reasonably strong force but if you are a large enough, and strong enough, person you can defeat it too.

While I can't second guess Chris Reeve on the purpose of the bumps, I believe they do aid in giving a bit more positive grip, and they look good too. I think they add a little character to an otherwise starkly utilitarian appearance.

DW

DW

------------------
Dennis Wright
Wright Knife & Sporting Goods
1-800-400-1980
("Have a knife day!")
wrightknife@ixpres.com

[This message has been edited by Dennis Wright (edited 03-15-2000).]

[This message has been edited by Dennis Wright (edited 03-16-2000).]
 
Originally posted by Dennis Wright:

The only test needed to ascertain that the locks do work is to put steady pressure on the back of the blade while holding the handle firmly. I strongly recommend wrapping the blade with a chamois or other material to prevent injury if the lock does fail. Also, know that if you can make the lock fail like that (and you can if you apply enough pressure)it will continue to fail. Once the lock has been compromised it will no longer be reliable.

Click to expand...

Dennis, thanks again for your help. Have you seen the lock tests on this site:
http://www.agrknives.com/rec.knives/llocktest.html

What's your take?
 
I'm sure both of these gents are very knowledgable when it comes to folding knives and their lockups. I am also pretty sure that those tests take a knife way beyond it's intended purpose as a cutting tool.

I do not believe they are necessary to judge the quality of a well made knife and can ruin an otherwise sound lock. In my opinion, they are excessive and abusive.


------------------
Dennis Wright
Wright Knife & Sporting Goods
1-800-400-1980
("Have a knife day!")
wrightknife@ixpres.com
 
An interesting piece of information about the "spine whack test".

A customer was in the shop the other day picking up his new Sebenza. He mentioned that he had seen this thread and decided to try the Spine whack on an old TL-29 (electrician's knife) that he had laying around. You may or may not be familiar with this knife. It was made mostly by Camillus and used extensively in the armed forces as a general maintenamce tool. It had a spearpoint blade, about 3" long that did not lock open and a screwdriver blade That supposedly did.

The screwdriver blade was a straight slot, primarily designed to turn twistlock or dzus fasteners on airplanes or electrical equipment.

The lock on these things is a joke. It is similar to a liner lock but isn't. The middle separator between the two blades extends out a ways and is sprung over to keep the screwdriver blade from closing. However, it is common knowledge that this thing doesn't work. Almost all of us who used these things bear at least one scar from that screwdriver blade closing on our fingers when the slightest amount of torque was applied with the knife. The lock on these things is totally unreliable.

Having said all that and to shorten up a long story, this customer decided to try the spine whack on this old knife and, guess what. It passed. He said that he couldn't make the blade collapse, using that test at all. It still failed when there was some torque applied but it wouldnt collapse under the spine whack. Go figure.

I guess the point that I'm trying to make here is don't trust some of these radical tests that some of the users have come up with to make themselves feel good about the knives that they spent their hard earned dollars for.

DW



------------------
Dennis Wright
Wright Knife & Sporting Goods
1-800-400-1980
("Have a knife day!")
wrightknife@ixpres.com
 
Originally posted by Dennis Wright:
this customer decided to try the spine whack on this old knife and, guess what. It passed. He said that he couldn't make the blade collapse, using that test at all. It still failed when there was some torque applied but it wouldnt collapse under the spine whack. Go figure.

I guess the point that I'm trying to make here is don't trust some of these radical tests that some of the users have come up with to make themselves feel good about the knives that they spent their hard earned dollars for.
Click to expand...

Dennis, although I am not a physicist I can only theorize that the forces applied through torquing a blade must be substantially different than the forces transmitted in a spine whack. A screw-driver blade is meant for torquing action, therefore a locking mechanism that would live up to its name would have to function in this activity. If a blade stays locked in its expected use then I would say that the lock works. It is a matter of how the blade is going to be used. Hypothetically, certain blades have to function in both the normal and reverse hand-held directions. Such knives ought to have a locking mechanism that functions for the designed use of the blade. I think that knives that are not designed for such purposes, but whose manufacturers have used a locking mechanism that was developed for a euphemistically-speaking dual-purpose blade, ought to lock up securely.

I believe any lock can be made to fail if it is subjected to forces substantially greater than the material strength of the parts. Locks can also be made to fail if forces are put upon them in directions that they were not designed for.

The type of locks I think we are talking about are liner locks and frame locks. These mechanisms are IMO really not locks. Their purpose is to keep a blade that would otherwise change direction due to gravity from doing so. They are in a way no different in function than the spring that engages the back of the blade tang of a slip joint or when it is opened. Lock backs, on the other hand, are what their name says they are.

In the end it is a matter of definition, a question of liability, and the "recommended" use to which the implement is put. If we don't want to see warning labels put on blades, such as those stamped onto firearms, then I believe we ought to be clear on the definitions.

Something to think about anyway.

[This message has been edited by V44 (edited 03-19-2000).]
 
V44, You are absolutely right in everything you said. You may have missed the point, however, that I was trying to make. (Sometimes my message gets lost in all the words.)

What I was trying to say was that some folks declare the spine whack to be the ultimate test of security of a locking liner type mechanism and here we have a knife with a notoriously bad lock (locking liner type) that is almost guaranteed to fail under almost any use and it passes the "ultimate test" with flying colors. That's all.

I just thought that it was in interesting piece of trivia and a good example of there being a fly in every ointment.

smile.gif


DW
 
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