Shun Classic Chef Knife -- Honing and/or whetstone?

D

drew4392

Joined
Sep 18, 2016
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I purchased two of these chef knives, and they're great. However, the retailer has told me several different things and I don't quite trust their advice. Shun told me something different, as well. And to top things off, my favorite sushi joint also contradicted everything. This is what I've been told:

Retailer - Honing steel every couple of uses. Sharpen once or twice per year by sending back to Sun/Kai.

Shun - (I tend to trust their advice) - Hone every time, sharpen once per year at most.

Sushi joint - Amazing sushi chef, equally amazing knife and whetstone collection, told me he NEVER hones and only uses whetstone EVERY day before he starts working. 1,000 and 3,000 grit stones.


What do you all recommend? The logic behind honing and straightening the blade makes the most sense. Whetstone takes off metal, right? Seems excessive to do every day.


Thanks!!
Andrew
 
Trust the sushi chef.

Hones can and will damage the edge of a hard steel knife. Just makes going back to the stone that much more difficult. Honing rods DO remove metal, they are essentially fine files.

Maintaining the edge with a 3k stone is like using a honing rod but will give consistent results and a much better edge. When the 3k does not make it sharp again or if the edge starts to become thick from use then it would be time to drop back to the 1k to bin and sharpen the edge.

Look up the Suehiro Cerax 1k/3k combo stone, it would be a good start.
 
I have no interest in contradicting Jason B., but I would personally probably go with Shun's advice. That is the approach I use with my kitchen knives.

I feel like the ultimate question is what is going to be easiest to keep up for you. Is pulling out the whetstone every day going to drive you nuts? It would for me. I like the process of sharpening, but daily honing is quicker and easier for me.
 
For a home cook it's not something you do everyday, maybe once a week. The sushi chef does it everyday because he uses his knife a lot.

Steeling the knife edge is not something that can be done repeatedly without consequence, the cold working of the hard steel, the burnishing and the misjudged angles will all lead to an multitude of problems associated with prolonged honing rod use. Used more than a handful of times and the edge becomes weak from metal fatigue which only causes the knife to dull quicker and force you to steel more. As you steel the edge more you start naturally increasing the edge angle to make the process go faster but this also makes the edge geometry more obtuse causing faster edge loss and more steeling.

The rabbit hole runs deep on this subject, lots of info in this forum if you search.
 
I have one of those in my kitchen and what I do is maintain the edge with a fine ceramic rod, very light pressure not more than 3 or 4 passes per side. This allow my to keep it sharp around 6 months before hitting the stones again.
I agree with Jason that it's not the better way but for me is a trouble free way.



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The higher the RC steel the more demanding the technique will be with a smooth honing rod. Smooth burnishing is used industrially on steels into the low 60s - higher then I ever thought possible. It is certainly possible to use a honing rod even on high RC and better grades of steel, but.....

Personally I would not use a grooved or smooth steel for anything over low 50s Rockwell C. It works great on Chicago Cutlery and other inexpensive brands and while I would not do so, will also work well on vintage carbon steel kitchen knives. It actually works better than a stone IMHO on low 50s high 40 RC. The cheaper stuff can also be maintained just as easily on the bottom of a ceramic bowl or large mug and steeled on the glazed rim. If you wouldn't use a small mill file on something, don't use a grooved rod either.

A polishing grade waterstone, while still demanding of technique, is more reliable and easier to use in the long run IMHO.

If we're talking about cheap cutlery is one thing, more expensive stuff with better steel and higher hardness is a different story.
 
I feel tempted to pretend I don't know what the difference is between honing and sharpening. I assume what they mean is edge leading strokes? Alternating only? Above the actual bevel (so microbevel)? On an abrasive like a ceramic or diamond rod? On a smooth or grooved steel? As opposed to sharpening? Certainly as opposed to stropping which is edge trailing?

I would agree with some of the above, provided I don't know what the steel is (VG10?) and how hard it is, I would not use a steel, certainly not a grooved one although I do not have experience with it on harder carbon steels myself. I would also be very careful with a ceramic rod, if used, it needs to be pristine clean and feather light pressure IMO. I have had some poor results with diamonds on very soft steels as well and not super ones on harder "japanese steels" - again pressure is the limiting factor here*. So I do think the best approach would be a waterstone. Why not using a splash and go stone at about 3-4 k, maybe just edge leading at the original angle, on a daily basis or as needed. I could see my Cholera 3k in a tub base waiting to be used with a splash of water (o.k. soaked for 10 seconds.) Is that really more fuss than grabbing a rod of some sort?

* I needed to edit this a bit. I do think that a well broken in diamond plate, particularly the coarser ones actually (DMT blue, maybe red) are excellent "hones" for just about everything. I realize though more and more to use them with oil these days, very light touch. For the break in period, I use the edge of the spine of a carbon steel blade, use oil on the "hone" and only "edge" trailing until I feels it smooth. Very little pressure. Experience I have on this broken-in diamond stones on a Murray Carter neck knife, blue steel, HRC approx. 63.
 
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Thanks, everyone. I'd be lying if I said I wasn't more confused :)

Honestly, I think the confusion is my stubbornness and thinking a honing rod is perfectly fine. The older and clearly VERY experienced sushi chef and everybody with tons of experience here saying a waterstone is better..... they all have to be wrong, right? haha

If I refer to my other hobbies and areas of interest, and stuck to the exact OEM/retailer recommendations, I'd slap myself. So... perhaps Williams Sonoma and Shun aren't exactly right with maintenance technique.

Off to watch YouTube videos on how to use a waterstone.

Thanks, all.
 
Shun uses a variant of VG-10 they call VG-MAX. They run it to 61 HRC. Shun sells honing steels with an angle guide built into the handle that supposedly matches their factory edge, to help you align the blade. Their steels have smooth sides and grooved sides so you can choose which you want to do.

Shun sells ceramic honing rods as well, in their higher-end families. Unless you just want all of the handles to match, I would buy a different brand if I wanted a ceramic hone.

I have a number of Shun kitchen knives in three of their product families: Classic, Premier, and Kaji. I have one of their honing steels in the Premier family.

If the knives need sharpening, I use Shapton Pro water stones. Usually 1000-2000 is as far as I go, but I do have a 5000 which I use more as a strop.

I have occasionally used the steel for one or two passes per side (slow, deliberate, edge-leading downward strokes, heel-to-tip, alternating sides) but I can't tell if it is really making that much difference. I'm an occasional home cook so it's not like the knives get dull that fast. I use good cutting boards and good technique so the edges hold up well.

Also - Shun sells their own brand of water stones. I have never used them. I think there are other brands that may offer a better stone for a better price.

If you ask Williams-Sonoma sales reps for advice, they are going to go with the manufacturer's recommendation, which is what it sounds like they did.

A pro chef is going to have a completely different usage profile than a home cook. Higher end Japanese knives are often run pretty hard and a steel will have little effect or may even lead to chipping if used wrong.

The Shun knives are about at the upper limit of hardness that can still reasonably respond to steeling. Just don't use the "swordfighting" technique you see on TV where someone is whipping the knife and steel back and forth against each other.
 
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jc57 said:
Shun uses a variant of VG-10 they call VG-MAX. They run it to 61 HRC. Shun sells honing steels with an angle guide built into the handle that supposedly matches their factory edge, to help you align the blade. Their steels have smooth sides and grooved sides so you can choose which you want to do.

Shun sells ceramic honing rods as well, in their higher-end families. Unless you just want all of the handles to match, I would buy a different brand if I wanted a ceramic hone.

I have a number of Shun kitchen knives in three of their product families: Classic, Premier, and Kaji. I have one of their honing steels in the Premier family.

If the knives need sharpening, I use Shapton Pro water stones. Usually 1000-2000 is as far as I go, but I do have a 5000 which I use more as a strop.

I have occasionally used the steel for one or two passes per side (slow, deliberate, edge-leading downward strokes, heel-to-tip, alternating sides) but I can't tell if it is really making that much difference. I'm an occasional home cook so it's not like the knives get dull that fast. I use good cutting boards and good technique so the edges hold up well.

Also - Shun sells their own brand of water stones. I have never used them. I think there are other brands that may offer a better stone for a better price.

If you ask Williams-Sonoma sales reps for advice, they are going to go with the manufacturer's recommendation, which is what it sounds like they did.

A pro chef is going to have a completely different usage profile than a home cook. Higher end Japanese knives are often run pretty hard and a steel will have little effect or may even lead to chipping if used wrong.

The Shun knives are about at the upper limit of hardness that can still reasonably respond to steeling. Just don't use the "swordfighting" technique you see on TV where someone is whipping the knife and steel back and forth against each other.
Click to expand...

Great info - thanks for that!
 
The Shun web site only recommends "weekly honing" to extend the time between sharpenings, then recommends using a "whetstone" - which can mean pretty much any kind of bench hone, or sending it back to them for "free" sharpening (meaning you pay shipping to them and include a $5 processing fee for the 1st knife, +$2 for each additional), or using a professional sharpening service.

https://shun.kaiusaltd.com/product-care


Soo... I suggest learning how to sharpen and investing in a few decent water stones. The 1k/3k Suehiro Cerax combo mentioned in an earlier post sounds like a good choice at about $50. It would pay for itself after the first three or so mail-in factory sharpenings.
 
Honestly, I've had a Shun Classic nakiri in the kitchen for three years, and all I do to keep it scary sharp is give it a 10-15 light strops, each side, on a 4-micron CBN-emulsion-loaded leather-on-wood paddle strop, a few times a week. Previously, before acquiring the strop and CBN-emulsions, I was doing the same thing maybe once or twice a month on 2000-grit 3M sandpaper, backed with a firm placemat. Once or twice a year, I'd touch it up on the fine and extra-fine rods on a sharpmaker, using the 30° inclusive setting, and that brought the edge back to life pretty effortlessly if it was starting to lack bite.
 
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OP, you have to consider the source for each advice. For the retailer, if he said hone every time you use it then it doesn't sound like a very sharp knife to begin with and how often do you think the average person hones their knives before using?

For Shun, sure they don't care whether you hone the knife each time or every other time. What they don't want is to see your knives twice a year because if everybody did that, then they'd have to hire more people or have longer turn around times.

For the Sushi chef, he doesn't want to waste any time honing during the day as time spent on honing is time not making sushi. He'd rather spend the time sharpening his knife before the customers start coming in droves. Plus for the volume he does, he should sharpen it every day. He wants a nice slicer so that the edges of his sashimi aren't ragged. Do you really care if the edges of your chopped celery are ragged?

That said, I believe honing a knife carefully before using would be beneficial and when I see / feel it's not sharp enough that's then i take the time to sharpen it or not that the next time I'm in a sharpening mood, I should sharpen that knife or the set.
 
Rey HRH said:
OP, you have to consider the source for each advice. For the retailer, if he said hone every time you use it then it doesn't sound like a very sharp knife to begin with and how often do you think the average person hones their knives before using?

For Shun, sure they don't care whether you hone the knife each time or every other time. What they don't want is to see your knives twice a year because if everybody did that, then they'd have to hire more people or have longer turn around times.

For the Sushi chef, he doesn't want to waste any time honing during the day as time spent on honing is time not making sushi. He'd rather spend the time sharpening his knife before the customers start coming in droves. Plus for the volume he does, he should sharpen it every day. He wants a nice slicer so that the edges of his sashimi aren't ragged. Do you really care if the edges of your chopped celery are ragged?

That said, I believe honing a knife carefully before using would be beneficial and when I see / feel it's not sharp enough that's then i take the time to sharpen it or not that the next time I'm in a sharpening mood, I should sharpen that knife or the set.
Click to expand...

Well said sir.


Russ
 
I have a "Ran" damascus santoku - basically the same formula as your Shun - VG-10 core with pretty laminated layers over the top.

i sharpen (on an edge pro) maybe once every 6-8 weeks, but run the blade very lightly down the sharp maker ultra fine rods every 2-3 uses.
your mileage may vary, what i call "every 2-3 uses" may be preparing one meal for you, so you might need to do it every day, or every 4-5 uses, it all depends.
a few swipes on the sharp maker has always done the job for me - and it is much easier than learning to get the angle right on a "steel"
 
It comes down to the hardness of your knife steel Vs the honing rod. It also depends upon what kind of honing rod you have. Diamond and Ceramic rods will remove material. Steel honing rods might remove material if their hardness is higher than your knife steel. I usually follow the same protocol on all my knives; sharpen once, hone forever. However that has some wiggle room. I will re-sharpen if a blade gets damaged. I also usually only hone on a leather strop.

To make it easy, sharpen once, strop after every use.
 
Grew up with our butcher shop in front of our house. I sliced literally tons of meat between sharpenings (on a hone) maintaining with only a steel. We didn't have ceramic rods nor Japanese knives back then.
 
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