Shun knives......a few random thoughts

Kohai999

Kohai999

Second Degree Cutter
Joined
Jul 15, 2003
Messages
12,554
I have seen here, and in some professional chef's forums, a negative attitude towards Shun knives that I don't really understand.

They are not perfect, but....in a realm that for YEARS celebrated the kitchen knives of Wusthof and Henckles(mystery steel, anyone?) they are many, many leagues ahead.

Thomas Welk(Sales Director for Kai USA) is one of my best friends.

When Shun started doing their thing on an international level, he sent me some knives and wanted my opinion.

1. They are heat treated hard
2. They are ground very thin
3. They handle wonderfully

These knives represent the biggest warranty issue for Kai USA.....simply put, many, many home cooks do not know how to properly use thinly ground, hard stainless steel knives and they break them....and Kai takes care of them even though they really shouldn't, imo.

The Shun hate is a bit confusing to me. I think they are great knives.....vastly superior to most other production knives, but not quite handmade quality. There are tradeoffs and I appreciate that.

Recently, I got a Tojiro DP Damascus 7-inch Nakiri Knife and a Shun Premier Nakiri Knife....the Shun is about 40% more expensive, and imo, is more than 50% a better knife....it is ground thinner, was razor sharp out of the box, is more attractive and has better balance.....head to head, the Shun is a better knife and it is the one I use.

This post is not intended to be doctrine, I'd like to hear reasons why people do not like Shun. While I think that they make an excellent product, we have some very qualified people on this s/f who may disagree, and would like to have a discussion.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson
 
Shun is too expensive for what you get.

If I can get a true laser gyuto for less than $200, new, direct from Japan, why would I buy a Shun? Further, I wish to support traditional, artisinal crafts as are in place in Sakai. I like the grind, and aesthetics and materials used in Sakai and Tosa knives far more.

Shun knives typically have way too much belly, and their focus is on bling rather than true performance (when compared to anything not sold at Wal Mart). Also their Ken Onion line is pretty ugly, they use jargon like "high frequency and low frequency serrations," they largely use VG-10 which is not the best for edge stability, etc.

I am no fan of Tojiro, but compared to Sakai Yusuke, Sakai Ichimonji, and Konosuke. . . well, there is NO comparison. It's like comparing a Mini Cooper to a Lotus. More fun than a Honda Civic, trendy, but not on the same level as a real performance machine. And that's fine. . . for their target audience, but that ain't me.
 
Fritz MacKrieg said:
Shun is too expensive for what you get.

If I can get a true laser gyuto for less than $200, new, direct from Japan, why would I buy a Shun? Further, I wish to support traditional, artisinal crafts as are in place in Sakai. I like the grind, and aesthetics and materials used in Sakai and Tosa knives far more.

Shun knives typically have way too much belly, and their focus is on bling rather than true performance (when compared to anything not sold at Wal Mart). Also their Ken Onion line is pretty ugly, they use jargon like "high frequency and low frequency serrations," they largely use VG-10 which is not the best for edge stability, etc.

I am no fan of Tojiro, but compared to Sakai Yusuke, Sakai Ichimonji, and Konosuke. . . well, there is NO comparison. It's like comparing a Mini Cooper to a Lotus. More fun than a Honda Civic, trendy, but not on the same level as a real performance machine. And that's fine. . . for their target audience, but that ain't me.
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I totally think that Seki City may be saved by the kitchen cutlery industry and that is a good thing.

Shun knows how to market their product, but I WILL disagree that it is too expensive for what you get. I think the value is balanced and that the product is of high quality compared to some of the pieces that I have seen that approach $500.00+.

I TOTALLY appreciate your perspective and thank you for posting!

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson
 
Kohai999 said:
I totally think that Seki City may be saved by the kitchen cutlery industry and that is a good thing.

Shun knows how to market their product, but I WILL disagree that it is too expensive for what you get. I think the value is balanced and that the product is of high quality compared to some of the pieces that I have seen that approach $500.00+.

I TOTALLY appreciate your perspective and thank you for posting!

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson
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All good, brother! Not saying they are exorbitantly priced, just saying us forum readers can do better, in general. For me it is mainly an ideological difference. Thanks for not taking offense!

Cheers.
 
I have no problems with the $125 I paid for my 8" Classic. I could do without the "Damascus", but the VG-10 is still a laser after 8 months of use. Works for me.
 
I would certainly agree that most us forum readers can do better for the dollar, but I do think they are a great fit for many people particularly those that value aesthetics as much or more than performance and I don't mean that in a demeaning way. My wife loves the Shun's I bought for her years ago which is great because she has no desire to mess with my knives.

These knives represent the biggest warranty issue for Kai USA.....simply put, many, many home cooks do not know how to properly use thinly ground, hard stainless steel knives and they break them....and Kai takes care of them even though they really shouldn't, imo.
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I think the home cooks that you referred to are the perfect market for Shun, not knife forum folks or professional cooks. Kai does have an excellent warranty and I have recommended Shun knives to many people.
 
Most professionals can't afford shuns to begin with. The biggest complaint in the kitchens I've worked in is that they're consistently more stolen than any other knife, usually from junior chefs. Other than that, most kitchen pros use FKM's or MAC's in some of the best restaurants on earth. Just what I've seen. I was a skeptic, but my FKM's and MAC's are still a dream to use 10 years later. The few shuns I really saw were bread knives for the front of the house.

I could go into design, fatigue, and materials issues with them, but they aren't sending me the same check they're sending those celebrity chefs.
 
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B34NS said:
Most professionals can't afford Shun knives (sic) to begin with.
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Not sure why that is.

I have been a professional 3 times.....Bedford Seafood, 1984-1987, Emmett Watson's Oyster Bar, 1996 and Whole Foods Market Seafood Team 2011-2012.

If I don't want it stolen, I keep my eye on it, and take it home.

If a crew member lifted my kit while working....well....I'd cut them badly....no matter who...and everyone I worked with knew it and it was serious....so that isn't an issue if you put it out like that. Maybe knife skills need work?

I purchased a lot of knives over time, and am not even sure what FKM means? I have used Shun knives at WFM Encinitas and they performed admirably, and cost was full pop on those.

Thanks, and Best Regards,

STeven Garsson
 
Put down some serious oysters at Emmet's! Well it was more in the mid-fine dining places I saw it. Usually fresh externs, CIA/City college grads, and stages, but these were big kitchens with a lot of staff, so I wouldn't suspect the line guys as much as FOH and repairmen /cleaning crew types. Still, there's been a few bad apples I've encountered behind the stove as well. In the more michelin three world everyone knew exactly what gear everyone had, so you were more in danger of losing a nice spoon or tongs to the dishwasher machine than a crew that tight. Most in those kitchens had really nice custom knives for specialized purposes, and fujiwara's (FKM series) or MAC pro series. Contrary to the chef culture out there of "don't touch my knives" isn't the case in these places since everyones highly trained and respectful at the pass with everyone's tools. Mostly since they were an affordable, durable, stock looking, efficient tools. With shuns I think it's more the custom japanese look that makes them candy for thieves.

I think they're great knives for the materials and styling, for what they cost. For me it's more a matter of design, but I'm not everyone. I put my knives through a lot of different materials at volume, so as long as it's comfy to use for cases of something with nice detail work. That said I'm more a fan of knives in the 5" and under for most kitchen work. I feel their designs are a little more focused on aesthetics than efficiency. It makes them successful, so what do I know. I just can't justify at this point paying that much for something with handles like they offer. Their reserve line reminds me of wearing a catchers mit with a knife attached to it. In terms of blade geo, the westernized eastern patterns are fun to look at, but having tried plenty of them, I kept yearning for my lighter, thinner, little knives instead. The steels they use are great, but I would have hoped by now they could just make a simple pro line without all the aesthetic bells and whistles for the rest of us, I might be interested. Glad to see them branching out, but they've got a ways to go before more pros are sold.
 
Hi Steven,

This is a good question, and a sentiment that I think I sometimes exude.

I'll let you know up front that I'm not a very big fan of Shun knives. That being said, here are several of mine:



My first foray into stepping up from $20 Walmart knives was with the 7 inch Shun santoku pictured above. I've had it for about 8 years now. I sliced, diced, washed, left sit out overnight with lemon juice on it, dropped it, and generally made lots of mistakes sharpening it. I still use it today sometimes, but I generally view it as a beater knife or the knife I offer to friends/family that want to help me cook so that they don't wreck my other knives. Today I use a laser gyuto, kurouchi nakiri, and a kamagata usuba--all of which are thinner, ground better, and are heat treated harder than my Shun santoku.

For most people, when they encounter a Shun (typically a santoku or chefs knife) it will likely be a harder, thinner ground knife than what they are used to. It will probably cut better than whatever they have been using before. If they purchase one, it will also be more expensive than any of their other kitchen knives.

But how did they encounter a Shun in the first place? Why didn't they come across a Konosuke, a Suisin, or a Sakai Yusuke gyuto? Shun has a lot more brand presence due to advertisement, endorsements, and market saturation (i.e. you can literally walk into a department store and they will carry them).

Objectively, though, how do they compare with a knife made by another manufacturer that uses the same materials?

Tojiro is a commonly referenced competitor, and, in my experience, they make knives with a better profile, the same materials, a thinner grind, and a lower price point. You can get a ~7 inch Tojiro gyuto for a little over $65 (though I've seen them occasionally on sale for ~$50), while a Shun Classic santoku will cost you about $100 if you shop around. The Shun does have the "faux" damascus bling going for it, though objectively it does nothing to aid the performance of the knife in the kitchen. An Al Mar santoku costs only a few more dollars, and the "faux" damascus is much better looking and longer lasting than that on the Shun Classic line.

I'm sure I'll someone will chime in to dispute my claim shortly, but in my experience the Shun Classic lines have chipping issues that I don't see in other VG-10 kitchen knives. For whatever reason, the Premier line didn't seem to exhibit this chipping - despite also being VG-10 - that the Classic line seems to. Their SG-2 lines, even though they are heat treated harder, also don't seem to have chipping issues.

I will say that the Tojiro DP line does have fit and finish issues that you don't typically see on a Shun (i.e. waviness in the edge grind or sharp edges on the handle). On the other hand, the oddly shaped handle on the Shun makes my hand hurt after about 45 minutes even if it is smooth and well machined.

I'm happy to hear that you are having a good experience with your Shun, but I'm not sure that comparing a Tojiro Damascus to a Shun Premier is much of a fair comparison--the Shun Premier is ~50% more expensive than the Tojiro Damascus you mentioned. Furthermore, for the price I see Shun Premier Nakiri's going for, you could pick up a Masakage Nakiri (the Shimo line for example) with a better damascus construction, thinner grind, and harder steel.

For me, every time I see a Shun, I see money that could have been spent on an objectively better performing knife, or on a knife with more "bling" and comparable construction.
 
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Cynic2701 said:
I'm happy to hear that you are having a good experience with your Shun, but I'm not sure that comparing a Tojiro Damascus to a Shun Premier is much of a fair comparison--the Shun Premier is ~50% more expensive than the Tojiro Damascus you mentioned. Furthermore, for the price I see Shun Premier Nakiri's going for, you could pick up a Masakage Nakiri (the Shimo line for example) with a better damascus construction, thinner grind, and harder steel.

For me, every time I see a Shun, I see money that could have been spent on an objectively better performing knife, or on a knife with more "bling" and comparable construction.
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Thanks for the response to you both, B34NS AND CYNIC2701.

For me, like I said, it started out with the German brands mentioned above and moved from that to Shun, which was light years better.

Have just started branching out into the other Japanese brands, but it is going slow, because the Shun knives serve my purposes...and the Tojiro DP Nakiri was available at a decent price point, I picked it up...fair comparison or not...that is what I have.....as I get different models and compare them, I'll share my impressions.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson
 
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I agree, moving from cheap Walmart knives to a Shun there are huge differences. The few German knives (e.g. thick heavy chef knives) I've had the opportunity to use all made the Shun's I've used cut like a dream in comparison.

To be fair, I actually do think that the Shun 3 1/2 inch paring knife is a good deal when you can find them for under $40. The closest comparable Tojiro DP paring knife costs about the same, but I like Shun's paring knife better.
 
Cynic2701 said:
I agree, moving from cheap Walmart knives to a Shun there are huge differences. The few German knives (e.g. thick heavy chef knives) I've had the opportunity to use all made the Shun's I've used cut like a dream in comparison.

To be fair, I actually do think that the Shun 3 1/2 inch paring knife is a good deal when you can find them for under $40. The closest comparable Tojiro DP paring knife costs about the same, but I like Shun's paring knife better.
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I was buying the expensive Germans.....my Wusthof 9" slicer cost $100.00 in 1995. They are very heavy and not ideal with edge geometry, even after a re-profile the stock is too thick at the primary bevel.:(

Use the 3 1/2" Shun parer just about every day from opening envelopes and boxes to slicing radishes, it cuts like a laser and is not chippy.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson
 
I've owned 2 shuns, and used more from coworkers.

As a chef, their steel in their VG series was too brittle, chipped frequently. Geometry is ok, not great and not bad. I had the black handles and they were absolutely terrible because it kept getting greasy and slippery, not good when you have a ton of food to make and constantly wiping the handle is very time consuming.

For the home chef they might be fine, they aren't liked too well in a professional kitchen.

Though that was 3 years ago, they might of resolved the issue. I won't be spending any money on them but if someone at work has a new shun I'll always give it a try.
 
I gave a set of Shuns to a co-worker after I had used them for what I needed. They don't stand up very well in the hands of the average non-knife loving chef but that is probably true of most high end culinary blades. I do agree with the other posters that they are too expensive for what you get. I know plenty of equally good Japanese blades for less money and better knives for about the same price as a Shun. As was mentioned, Shuns sell a lot on the bling factor, something I've found to be true of most kitchen knives marketed to home cooks.
 
I have the Shun Taiyo and I absolutely love it. The design is one of my favorites and the SG2 has held up very well to daily use. I don't know if I would buy one of their VG10 blades after my positive experiences with SG2.

My only other Japanese blade is a Masakage and it's leagues ahead of my Henckels set.
 
tokerblue said:
I have the Shun Taiyo and I absolutely love it. The design is one of my favorites and the SG2 has held up very well to daily use. I don't know if I would buy one of their VG10 blades after my positive experiences with SG2.

My only other Japanese blade is a Masakage and it's leagues ahead of my Henckels set.
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How much did the Taiyo set you back? I just did a quick search on Google and it looks like they are going for $700! :eek:
Not criticizing your choice, but for me, with $700 I'd get a honyaki wa-gyuto with an ebony handle & blonde buffalo horn ferrule :D
 
I have owned a few Shun's before I started making and using my own knives. When I was looking for a better knife than the Henkels and such Shun was what I settled on.
They were the nicest kitchen knives of anyone I knew. I did find their handles to be too plain and small for my liking, but when I decided to make my own chef knife I used my 9" Shun Chef for the pattern. I also used it as the basis for the cutting geometry.
I have never had an issue with chipping even when using a hard plastic board.
I still pull my Shun off the wall when I have larger jobs to do.
 
Cynic2701 said:
I will say that the Tojiro DP line does have fit and finish issues that you don't typically see on a Shun (i.e. waviness in the edge grind
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My Tojiros have that same issue. Easy enough to fix, as was the gap between the tang and scales. But I knew that going in - if I were to just pony up for the peace of mind that comes with perfect F&F, I'd get a Shun, but I was fine knowing that I'd have a little work to do. Depends on the situation, too - my wife isn't terribly careful with them, so if I were to have gotten a set of Shuns instead of Tojiros, I'd have a heart attack every time she cooked.
 
I've sharpened 90% of the Japanese kitchen knives you can name and Shun I practly refuse to sharpen. Chipping and a boat load of pitting were two very common problems that I personally saw not to mention poor edge retention and how it truly sucks to sharpen one. If you want a knife that looks better than it works then buy a shun.

If you are firmiliar with Japanese kitchen knives then you would know they are not very attentive of western handles. Even the Japanese D handles are very simplistic most often only being burned on and turned out by the hundreds on a lathe with a jig. Truthfully, you shouldn't be holding the handle anyways, proper grip is the pinch grip.

Tojiro is probably one of the best large knife brands from Japan, their VG-10 will walk circles around a shun with the same steel.

All German knives use the same steel X50CrMoV15.
 
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