Sign at the Memphis Airport

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Pondoro2310

Joined
Apr 13, 2014
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I'm used to the 🚫 Guns signs but at the Memphis airport they have a no knives sign. I get that I can't take a knife past security. But I had a Buck folder and an Old Hickory fixed blade in my suitcase. I checked the suitcase and noticed they were x-raying bags right there.

No problem, but this troubles me. (Not the x-ray part, the no knives part combined with the instant x-ray.)

What are your thoughts?
 
The signs are pure security theater and don't accurately represent law or policy. You can actually bring guns and knives in, you just have to follow special procedures for securing them in checked baggage.
 
Yeah. My fear is when some low-level security dude who is a closet ninja wanna be decides to enforce the signage. The signs are on his side. The only strategy is to be polite and hope he doesn't decide to call the real cops. But you could still end up arrested. Not convicted, mind you, but arrested.
 
From what I can tell, Tennessee is pretty relaxed about knives and putting knives in checked luggage should not be a problem.
 
Pondoro2310 said:
Yeah. My fear is when some low-level security dude who is a closet ninja wanna be decides to enforce the signage. The signs are on his side. The only strategy is to be polite and hope he doesn't decide to call the real cops. But you could still end up arrested. Not convicted, mind you, but arrested.
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Fortunately this country has not devolved into a nation of signs but remains a nation of laws. Perhaps a few folks will be arrested but at the same time they will not be convicted which will result in no more sign arrests. It is what it is.
 
Vinifera said:
Fortunately this country has not devolved into a nation of signs but remains a nation of laws. Perhaps a few folks will be arrested but at the same time they will not be convicted which will result in no more sign arrests. It is what it is.
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Exactly, signs are not laws. I could put a sign on my office that says "No baseball hats allowed," but it's effectively just a suggestion. Even if I were the legal owner of my office (which I'm not), all I am allowed to do is tell a hat-wearer to leave and if they refused, could have them arrested for trespassing, but that's it.

Furthermore, arrests that don't result in convictions are not without consequences for the LEO perpetrating them. In MD we famously had a knife-related arrest for a legal knife. The cop ended up getting hauled into federal court and convicted of false arrest. Twice.
 
As much as its not advisable to put the libertarian A-hole card, it can be very handy at times. In the US at least, it can be as simple as "Let me make my flight, or call the police." Often it seems security wants to play power games, and refusing to play is the only way to win. In other countries it may not work as some have real police as security. The hard part is knowing where that line is of "I'm just a nice guy who will comply" to "Don't mess with me, unless you intend on arresting me" If the security guard is really playing power games, he doesn't want real cops there.

With that note, I'd suggest only those who are in the US with a US passport try that, in other places it won't go well. You gotta know the rules to win the game. For example, I've been interviewed at airports (short, procedural stuff) by RCMP (Canadian federal cops, not good to cross) as well as Australian federal police, and Australian boarder patrol (both with real power) never really interacted with any of the security staff at the US airports I've been to, apart from forgetting coins in a pocket before walking through the detector hoop. And to be honest, by the time I had rung the bell, I'd already been profiled and benefited form being a white male. The Hispanic kid behind me caught ever-living hell.
 
Tennessee Code Annotated (TCA) 39-17-1359 does define what a sign must look like, and carrying a "weapon" past a proper sign (which can be just the circle-with-slash over the item to be prohibited) is a class B misdemeanor punishable by a fine only (no jail time) of $500. The law, as written, does not specifically restrict the signs to firearms. So carrying a knife past a properly posted "no knives" sign is in fact a crime in TN.
 
A review of the TN statutes indicates that as of 2014 there are now no knife restrictions, including switchblades. Since knives are now longer defined as a weapon it would appear a prosecution for carrying a knife in violation of a sign prohibiting knives is not enforceable because knives are not prohibited and may be carried lawfully. It would defy logic to allow the state to classify a knife as a weapon by a sign when it is not a weapon pursuant to the statutes.

39-17-1359. Prohibition at certain meetings -- Posting notice.

(a) (1) Except as provided in § 39-17-1313, an individual, corporation, business entity or local, state or federal government entity or agent thereof is authorized to prohibit the possession of weapons by any person who is at a meeting conducted by, or on property owned, operated, or managed or under the control of the individual, corporation, business entity or government entity.

(2) The prohibition in subdivision (a)(1) shall apply to any person who is authorized to carry a firearm by authority of § 39-17-1351.

(b) (1) Notice of the prohibition permitted by subsection (a) shall be accomplished by displaying one (1) or both of the notices described in subdivision (b)(3) in prominent locations, including all entrances primarily used by persons entering the property, building, or portion of the property or building where weapon possession is prohibited. Either form of notice used shall be of a size that is plainly visible to the average person entering the building, property, or portion of the building or property, posted.

(2) The notice required by this section shall be in English, but a duplicate notice may also be posted in any language used by patrons, customers or persons who frequent the place where weapon possession is prohibited.

(3) (A) If a sign is used as the method of posting, it shall contain language substantially similar to the following:

AS AUTHORIZED BY T.C.A. § 39-17-1359, POSSESSION OF A WEAPON ON POSTED PROPERTY OR IN A POSTED BUILDING IS PROHIBITED AND IS A CRIMINAL OFFENSE.

(B) As used in this section, "language substantially similar to" means the sign contains language plainly stating that:

(i) The property is posted under authority of Tennessee law;

(ii) Weapons or firearms are prohibited on the property, in the building, or on the portion of the property or building that is posted; and

(iii) Possessing a weapon in an area that has been posted is a criminal offense.

(C) A building, property or a portion of a building or property, shall be considered properly posted in accordance with this section if one (1) or both of the following is displayed in prominent locations, including all entrances primarily used by persons entering the property, building, or portion of the property or building where weapon possession is prohibited:

(i) The international circle and slash symbolizing the prohibition of the item within the circle; or

(ii) The posting sign described in this subdivision (b)(3).

(c) (1) It is an offense to possess a weapon in a building or on property that is properly posted in accordance with this section.

(2) Possession of a weapon on posted property in violation of this section is a Class B misdemeanor punishable by fine only of five hundred dollars ($500).

(d) Nothing in this section shall be construed to alter, reduce or eliminate any civil or criminal liability that a property owner or manager may have for injuries arising on their property.

(e) This section shall not apply to title 70 regarding wildlife laws, rules and regulations.

(f) This section shall not apply to the grounds of any public park, natural area, historic park, nature trail, campground, forest, greenway, waterway or other similar public place that is owned or operated by the state, a county, a municipality or instrumentality thereof. The carrying of firearms in those areas shall be governed by § 39-17-1311.
 
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TN removed the wording about knives from the law effective July 2014. There is no longer a prohibition against carrying any form of knife in TN. That does not make them "not a weapon." You could certainly try to argue that as your defense in court. Usually the image depicted on those signs is of a fixed blade knife with a cross guard, so you could try to say you didn't think it applied to folding knives.

Unfortunately the wording is somewhat vague and when they repealed the other knife laws last year, I don't think they thought to change the wording or specify exactly what type of knife is a weapon and what type is not.
 
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Again, if a knife is NOT a weapon according to the law then the state has no authority to prohibit the carrying of a knife by a statute which refers to a weapon. If that is what the legislature intended then it could have stated something to the effect of "Notwithstanding anything to the contrary herein, the carrying of a knife [as defined by the statute] may be prohibited in certain areas or properties defined as follows..." The legislature failed to do so, therefore it would appear any such sign prohibiting a knife is not enforceable.
 
The TN law doesn't say knives are not weapons, it just doesn't prohibit carrying them in general. View it as "constitutional carry" for knives. I.e, they are weapons that are OK to carry. EXCEPT where someone has posted a sign otherwise.

Best resource for the current laws is https://www.lexisnexis.com/hottopics/tncode/ which is usually pretty up to date, though they can lag a few months after a law has been changed. You have to drill down to the section (Title 39, Chapter 17, Part 13) and then you can look at the individual laws.

There is no place in that section where the word "weapon" is specifically defined. 39-17-1301 has multiple definitions, and they have a pretty broad definition of what a "knife" is which would over axes and scissors ("any bladed hand instrument that is capable of inflicting serious bodily injury or death by cutting or stabbing a person with the instrument").

There are sections about "prohibited weapons" (the subset of all weapons that you may not own at all) and "unlawful carrying of a weapon" - the subset of all weapons that mere carrying can be considered unlawful (with a host of exceptions). So knives are weapons that are legal to carry, but they are still weapons.

The TN State Attorney General has not issued an opinion on TCA 39-17-1359 since 2013 (all of them are here and searchable: http://attorneygeneral.tn.gov/op/opinions.html) and that 2013 opinion was in reference to firearms only. They don't issue opinions to regular citizens so it's useless to call them and ask.

I would be willing to bet you, in an airport, the Memphis Airport Police Department (they are separate from the Memphis Police) would arrest you if you were walking around in the terminal with a knife visible.

Someone concerned could contact them directly http://www.flymemphis.com/airport-police prior to visiting the airport while carrying a pocket knife and ask what their policy is.
 
If a knife is not defined as a weapon then unless a statute specifically prohibits carrying a knife then it cannot, by definition, be unlawful. I'm not concerned with an arrest as anyone can be arrested for anything even though the arrest is unlawful. The same goes for a "policy". In addition, I also am not interested in what the the state attorney general thinks as he or she does not have any decision making authority but is merely giving his or opinion about the law which, practically speaking, means nothing. The real issue is whether or not someone may be convicted. Penal statutes are strictly construed against the state and I see nothing in the statutes which would lead me to believe a conviction could result from a sign which is not in accordance with and in compliance with the state statutes.
 
There was a similar thread that came up over on the TnGunOwners forum (which I visit occasionally) back in 2014 when the law first came out: http://www.tngunowners.com/forums/topic/80275-july-1st-law/ . It doesn't answer anything but there are several opinions of posters on both sides of the question. Of course, opinions of random posters on the Internet don't mean anything, mine included.

The only way to find out for sure is to go into such a posted area with a knife in your possession and let law enforcement become aware of that, and see what happens, including going through the court system.

I will choose to err on the side of safety and not carry anything past one of those signs, since I do live in TN and they affect me.
 
I'm sure there are many opinions and many forum posts about the issue. I have practiced law since 1976 and get a kick out of such posts both here and on other forums. I have no problem with your choice of erring on the side of safety. FWIW I would have no problem with carrying my Case small Texas Jack or any similar knife in Memphis and would feel confident I could defend any unlawful arrest asserting I have violated a sign which does not comply with the law. All the best my friend.
 
No problems here. I also think the laws are somewhat vague and confusing (not to mention the fact that they tinker with them every year) and that somehow knives seem to get lumped in with firearms when it is presumably not the intent. As a TN resident and knife hobbyist, I try to stay informed of the current state of the laws here which is why I wanted to share what I knew of it with the OP and others.
 
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