Sikh knife?

Rusty

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The mention of the Tibetan thee reminds me that there are a lot more Sikhs around when I go to Reno or into California. There's even a Sikh Temple in Livingston, California where my mom was born. I seem to remember that for religious reasons they always are supposed to carry a knife, something in the papers a year or two back about a religious discrimination suit against a school district for not letting their kids carry. It's all a bit hazy, but my question is what kind of knife DO they trsditionally carry? I'm sure it's of a specific type but what does it look like? Tibet, Nepal, and the area the Sikhs are from are all way up at the northern edge of India aren't they? This would seem to fit in with thees and khukuris, so does anyone have a clue?

edit 05:48 - for that matter, any info about the Sikhs and their culture would be welcomed.
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Russ S


[This message has been edited by Rusty (edited 21 March 1999).]
 
There was a similar controversy in Toronto I believe. A Sikh leader was on TV and he was asked about his knife. He was quite upset and did not show the knife. He stated it was a small dagger.

Will
 
The knife is called a "Kirpan" I believe. Specimens I've seen (sheathed only, I'm afraid) have been ornate, with much silver. Blade pattern seemed to be a "radical Persian dagger" type with wildly upswept tips. Most are in the 4" range, I think. They're *probably* double edged but I can't be sure.

They "represent" swords in some way. Whether or not there's full-blown swords kept at home or the temples I have no clue, wouldn't be a shock if there were.

In California most of the furor surrounded schools. They're quite willing to obey open-carry laws so in general they have few problems here. In schools I recall them expressing willingness to have the knives be dulled and tied/locked into the sheaths somehow, I forget the details. It seemed they were willing to "maintain them for ceremony without preserving their weapon functionality" and I'm not aware of them taking any martial arts training that involve bladed arts - I asked some of 'em years ago.

There's some sort of "symbolism that they're not to be screwed with and that they view themselves as bringers of justice when necessary" connected with the knives, from the little I've read or heard. While they've been involved in some "controversial politics" in India I know of zero problems they've caused in the US. They're viewed here in Calif. as good citizens overall, slightly unusual, no big deal. Errr...there was something about some fightfights at temples in the South SF Bay area but they didn't pull the cutlery so...no biggie
biggrin.gif
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Jim March
 
Thanks Jim, that seems a little more specific than but still along the lines of the info I had. I'm almost sorry for the suggestion to name the megafolder you are trying to get made the "March Madness". (Nah, not really! Anyone interested can check this out in the Cammilus Megafolder thread). Whatever it's called, I like the idea.

How about some more comments? Anyone like Howard or Bill who has been in that part of the world, or has other knowlege of the Sikhs and their knives or culture? This is interesting to me. Thanks!

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Russ S
 
Sorry Rusty. The Sikh knife is one of the many things of which I am totally ignorant.

[This message has been edited by Howard Wallace (edited 21 March 1999).]
 
Hi Rusty:

I knew a few Sikhs in Nepal but I didn't even notice whether they carried a knife or not since carrying a blade of some kind was so common. I got to the point that I'd only notice the knife someone was carrying if it were enough out of the usual to attract my attention.

Jim sounds like he knows more than any of us about this. I learned something.

Bill
 
Rusty,

Since you ask about Sikh culture, here's what little I know. Now, I'm writing this from memory & without having checked any sources, so some details might be slightly off (names, dates, places, etc...). If so, my apologies, and if anybody would care to point them out to me, I'd be most grateful. So here goes:

The Sikh religion (Sikhism) is a monotheistic tradition that was first preached by Guru Nanak in North India several hundred years ago (13th century? 14th century? not sure of date). This tradition was maintained by a succession of Gurus (teachers) until early 17 century when the ruling Mughal dynasty, at the heights of their power, try to convert them to Islam. The 9th Guru, Guru Tegh Bahadur and his children are killed when they refuse to convert.

The 10th Guru, Guru Gobind Singh, decides that under the face of this oppression, it is time for some radical changes. He declares that he will be the last Guru and that henceforth, the Sikhs are to follow the scriptures as laid down in their holy book, the Guru Granth Sahib. He also takes steps to transform the Sikhs into a distinctly military sciety. He declares that all Sikh men are to call themselves "Singh" which means Lion, and women "Kaur" - Princess. Moreover, all Sikh men are to take a solemn vow, which among others enjoins them to always have certain objects on their person at all times. These are the five "K"s:

- "Kesh" or hair, signifying a lion's mane, which they tie up in their turbans.
- "Kanga" or comb, to maintain their hair.
- "Kachha" or undergarments, for decency, and also to be forever ready to jump into action without wasting valuable time dressing-up.
- "Kara" or steel bracelet, to remind them of their vows and also to serve as a last-ditch defense/shield.
- "Kirpan" or dagger, for obvious reasons!

Through the years the Sikhs give the Mughals a run for their money, and with the gradual deterioration of Mughal power, start establishing their own kingdom in what is now Punjab in India and Pakistan. The heights of Sikh power is reached in late 18th, early 19th century, especially under Maharaja Ranjit Singh, whose army consists of not only Sikhs and neighboring people, but also European mercenaries (especially artillery) and Gurkhas (in fact, a common Nepalese word for a Gurkha soldier even today is "Lahuray" which means someone from Lahore, the capital of Ranjit Singh's kingdom).

The 1840s see two Anglo-Sikh wars and the eventual defeat of the Sikh power. This is the first major campaign for the Gurkhas under the British, and I understand there were quite a few of their bretheren Lahurays fighting on the opposite side under the Khalsa flag. Anyways, after all is said and done, we find the British recruiting heavily from amongst the Sikhs. Eventually, the Punjab becomes the foremost source for recruits for the British-Indian Army, and the first image that comes to mind when someone speaks of British colonial troops are the bearded, turbaned Sikh and the Gurkha. Even today, notwhitstanding events of the 1980s, the military continues to be practically a family tradition among many Sikhs.

As for a Kirpan (or Kripan), those I've seen look kinda like a Persian/Arab dagger (Jambiya). When I was a school kid, all my Sikh classmates carried Kirpans, even if it was no more than a tiny, dull one. Some of them made do with a wee representation-type that they wore like a necklace, while the more "hard-core" types had wicked looking pieces of hardware dangling from their shoulders (now, this is school-kids in junior-high we're talking about here! And most of the schools I went to were Catholic and Jesuit institutions too!)

The orthodox folks, of course, won't be seen without their whole ensemble - white robes, wide sashes, huge beards, towering blue or orange turbans, long tulwars, sometimes even spears, etc. - nonchalantly striding by on the streets of north India - they present an imposing sight to say the least, and you should see the crowded streets part way for them!!!

As for martial training, I've seen them demonstrate their sword skills in various public displays, but never enough to be able to pass judgement - a lot of twirling, sword in each hand, chopping pieces of fruits on partner's head, throat, mouth, while blindfolded - that kind of stuff. I've heard that it's called "Gadka" or "Gatka" or "Phari-Gatka" or something like that, but at the moment don't know more.

Also, the Sikhs are well known for their boisterous and colorful dance, the "Bhangra."

For some pictures, check out the following site:

http://easyweb.easynet.co.uk/~amandeep/

This is a site of an upcoming book on Sikh military history and culture.

- Sonam
 
Yeeahhhoooo!!!! Wonderful, Sonam. Thank you very much. Lordy,Lordy, what a way to learn history.

((Hyperbole Warning!!!))How could they make history so dull in high school? If there was ever anything really interesting to learn, Mrs. Grundy, the shriveled up old prune who taught the class, looked like she'd eaten a sour pickle.((Hyperbole Alert End))

The site you listed makes me want to order a copy of the book.

Bill, if Sonam can wear a men's medium size T-shirt, I've got a Ghost Dance Centennial one for him.

((added by edit at 8:20PM PST / Hey Cobalt!!! Back when you were monkeying around and I told you I'd put on my Ghost Dance shirt, you didn't believe I had one did you? WELL, YOU WERE RIGHT! I don't have ONE, I've got TWO!!!))

Now I'll have to give the Pakistani high school librarian a visit, or his wife, who teaches a different grade than my wife. Yeah!

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Russ S


[This message has been edited by Rusty (edited 22 March 1999).]
 
I won't even try to top Sonam's post. I'll just add that the incident Jim mentioned in the temples did make the news. The catfight as I remember was a stabbing w/ the kirpan as often some religious values have become intertwined w/ politics. Also, there's the occasional story about Sikh teens who are detained at high school for carrying a kirpan.

In a brief interview, a Sikh teen stated that the kirpan was a symbol of protecting others and of justice and in actuality it is rather dull. Overall the debate concerned public safety policy vs. respecting cultural beliefs.

Incidentally, I remember seeing a PBS documentary mention that the U.S. Government has hired Sikhs to guard military bases as the are reknowned for their fierceness. (That's what the narrator said)

Peace,
smoke
 
Smoke is also from the SF Bay Area. I wasn't aware there'd been a stabbing...some sort of political squabble broke out among the temples but it was definately *mostly* fists.

Anyways...they've been good citizens. Everybody has problems now and again...
biggrin.gif


JM
 
Thanks, Sonam, for very imformative post. See how much one can learn growing up as a Gurkha kid in India?

Bill
 
Sonam, that was great and actually answers some questions with regard to a 'tulwar khukuri'. I am getting information and opinions from the V&A Museum in London, the Gurkha Museum in Winchester and have a second opinion coming from the Butterfield& Butterfield arms experts right here in SF. Hopefully Bill will post a photo of these knives which seem to be a combination of the Sikh culture and the Gurkha blade. Comments please, and Sonam I am downloading your terrific history lesson. Thank you.

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JP
 
I'm glad people found my post useful! Just a quick addendum here: like I noted above, I wrote the post off the top of my head and so some details mightn't exactly be 100% correct. For instance, just found out that the date for the founding of the Sikh military order, the Khalsa, wasn't early 17th century as I noted, but late 17th century, 1699 to be exact (this year marks their 300th anniversary - I bet they'll partying hard in the Punjab plains this year!)

Rusty, couldn't access your email address, so if you tell me your email address I'll let you know when that book on Sikh warrior culture hits the market. The authors tell me they'll have it available for distribution in North America sometime this summer.

And John, looking forward for your info on "tulwar khukuri" etc.

- Sonam
 
Sonam, that is:

Russ Slate - russlate@sierra.net

Since I don't have your mailing address, I dropped the Ghost Dance Centennial shirt in the mail 25 minutes ago c/o your uncle. He should have it tomorrow afternoon. Incidentally, when I looked at it the dates were 1889-1989. Didn't realize til then it'd been hanging unworn in the closet that long or that ten years had gone by since I got it.

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Russ S


[This message has been edited by Rusty (edited 24 March 1999).]
 
Thanks a lot, Rusty and uncle Bill, I'm looking forward to the shirt - really appreciate it!

- Sonam
 
SONAM, I think your Uncle Bill kindly posted a picture of both of the 'tulwar' khukuris under the "Find the khukuri" thread. I look forward to your and other forumites thoughts on these unique knives.

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JP
 
Sonam adds something to this forum that is beyond me. He can give a first hand perspective from India. As I have said before, I am nothing but an old Nepali hillbilly and my perspective is much different.

Uncle Bill
 
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