Silat, anyone?

J

J_Ringo

Joined
Nov 26, 1999
Messages
176
Curious to know how many FMAs also practise Silat and where they or their gurus studied the art.

I don't think anyone's made the claim that Silat is indigenous or was already practised on the Philippines by the 16th century, so we'll probably get more objectivity and detail here rather than "When my great grandfather was attacked by a dozen alligators he developed our Silat family style,etc."

Also, how well do you blend Silat into Kali, and how much? 50-50? 60%-40%?

Many thanks in advance for your info.
 
Hi.

I study Silat and it's becoming my primary
focus. It seems to be very similar indeed
to Kali, many of the movements were familiar
to me when I first started it. Kali seems
like a harder style of Silat, though this
may be a misperception.

Silat is like an indonesian version of
jujitsu, but while many of the techniques
start out like jujitsu stuff they soon branch
out into interstellar strangeness. It's
common for people in my class to say "DAMN
that's cool."

As for whether it works in a fight, people
I am afraid of say it works in a fight and
that's good enough for me.
 
Ringo,
I just viewed a tape by Grand Tuhon Leo Gaje Jr. and along with his art of Pekiti Tirsia which he learned from his uncle and grandfather he studied Silat. Pekiti Tirsia is pretty influenced by Silat.

A good person to also add to this thread is Paul0 cause he is with SinaTirsiaWali which also founded the World Kali Silat

organization. HE also trains in Silat. Paul0 where are you?

Asuang,
From what I have seen of Silat it looks very deadly while still having both simple and graceful movements. My hunch is that it is very effective in a fight.
 
Words that come to mind when compemlating silat.. Cruel, Bueatiful, Brutal, Crunchy..

Asuang mentioned that people that he is afraid of say that it works..

That goes for me, too.

What really makes me believe that it is effective is that I am afraid to use it in a fight.. all of the techniques that I know culminate in neck breakers or throws by the neck or spine, and often also drawing and cutting thier throat.. often in conjunction.

josh
'gee, i wonder if twisting his head that way hurts'
 
Josh,
Thanks for pointing that out, you are right I missed reading the above line. No doubt Silat is impressively brutal.
smile.gif
 
JRF: Really have to get over to Cass Magda's School. (20 min away). Haven't seen his tapes. I trained with one of Paul de Thouars Sr. Gurus, he had modified the art to his own street experience (Doesn't everyone?) but Silat was still the foundation. He told me that Dan Inosanto had pointed out Pendekar de Thouars to him at a seminar casually saying something to the effect of "that old man is the deadliest fighter alive today". Guru Plinck's tape is an excellent overview and covers about 5-10 min. of knife defense. It is not as systematically organized as Bob Orlando's tape but it's probably the best "appetizer" for Silat I've seen. Guru Orlando's tape is like a step by step lesson in Silat and Silat principles, but no knife defense covered. (His guru is another de Thouars--but that's another story) Guru Orlando is methodical and thorough--He really has the knack for teaching. Both tapes are keepers. It's a close call but I'd suggest Plinck's first for an overview, it's more haphazard but you'll get to see (briefly) a wider range of techniques.

Damn it, I'm jumping the gun. Wait for Dave Fulton's reviews!

[This message has been edited by J_Ringo (edited 17 December 1999).]
 
josh wrote
>What really makes me believe that it is >effective is that I am afraid to use it in >a fight.. all of the techniques that I know >culminate in neck breakers or throws by the >neck or spine, and often also drawing and >cutting thier throat.. often in conjunction.

No doubt, bro. In fact, I am now petrified
of getting INTO a fight. Silat is dangerous
in a very baroque way. The first thing they
show you is a combined neck wrench and spine
snap.

And then there is stuff that they WONT TELL
YOU BECAUSE IT IS TOO DEADLY. What I want
to know is, if in their view the neck wrench
and spine break is just fine to show a bunch
of untrustworthy, clumsy whitebelts, what the
hell is their idea of too deadly?

They have given me small hints though. They
say that something in the first ten djurus
can be used to pull off the front part of
someone's rib cage.

They say that there are techniques that might
result in your hand getting sucked inside his
chest cavity.

They say that there are techniques to pop
someone's lungs.

I don't particularly want any of that stuff.
I certainly hope I never need to use any of
this. Thing is though, if you're putting in
the time to study something you may as well
have something that you absolutely KNOW will
work. I know Silat will work, I use the
stuff when sparring black belts and they are
defenseless before it. Once you close with
them which is the main problem it's all over.

You will note that most of Silat is closing,
wrapping like an octopus, and then wrenching
in unconscionable ways. I mainly want the
langka science of unbalancing out of it.
 
one thing I should add to that is that I am
talking about karate people. I think that
judo or jujitsu guys would have a much easier
time coping with this stuff because the arts
are very similar.
 
disregard

[This message has been edited by Smoke (edited 04-10-2001).]
 
Or... other things.

My instructor was teaching us sarong. He
said "Some people will boil sand in the juice
of hot peppers, then let it dry and then
ball it up in a knot at the end of their
sarong. Then when they need to they will
piss on it to wet it, and use that to bash
the enemy in the face. If they really want
to get nasty they will stud the ball with the
spines from poisonous toads, which then break
off in your body and kill you."

This is some serious stuff to be sure.
Martial arts are technology, just like
computers or fighter jets. Silat and kali
are the thermonuclear weapons of the
Archipelagos. Think how hard it would be to
really conquer the islands. You could occupy
and have cantons or whatnot but these arts
are meme viruses, you can't stop them from
spreading, and when some old man can kill
five soldiers very quickly all the technology
in the world isn't really going to help.

These styles are guerrilla styles. In Kali,
I'd really like to get more of the small unit
tactics they have because I bet there are a
lot.

Another thing I've heard of is the carry of
hallucinogenic thorn-apples. They'd grind
their nails into these and then flick them
into the enemy's eyes (sharp nails) with a
b1tchslap sort of movement called a kaprat.

I've also heard of the use of mind altering
herbs in Kali and especially Silat. I've
heard that these herbs and fungi had quite
an influence on the development of these
styles; look at the sinuous envelopments of
Silat and tell me the dudes who thought of
that weren't on something...
 
Silat eventually turened into kali. Eskrima however comes from more of a spanish influence. I dont teach espada y daga. What i can offer you if sinawali with 2 blades. After your practice the way you move is up to you. The jurus of pencak are all of the motions,ideas, and postures youll need. mix them with your footwork and you have kembangan (flower) my teacher refers to this as (bunga. sumatra has more of a freestyle way of doing things. The jurus are very short, and we spend most of our time on the footwork while west java is more structured, and complicated depending on what system it is. I suggest everyone go to bakbakan.com, and dowload whats available of "swish of the kris" Then you can see that the filipino people came from malaysia, and indonesia.
In silat you have the jurus (upper body movements) the lankas (lower body movements)unlike kali wich teaches the weapons first we look at silat as the opposite. Once you understand one pricipal it becomes 1,000 techniques. Most of the people i teach i first ask them to show me HOW they practice. They cant. They do the drills over and over but dont extract anything from it. The jurus are the same way. just like a shell. what can you do with it? how can you make them work? They dont do anything by themslves there just empty movement, but when you examine the tinyest motion you can see unlimited amount of material. Most people that i know who do kali do look into silat and are entertained by it but only learn a few techniques and tricks.
Pencak silat's movements are beautiful. the application is ugly.
donna you like it?
paulo www.vbg2.com/magic.htm
 
Asuang,
I found your last post REALLY interesting and informative.

I have trained a few times with Paulo (who doesn't live far from me) and I have to say that I have not seen anything like it. Paul had me in one takedown where he wrapped my body like a pretzel and if he put any more pressure I would have broken in three places, like, neck, arm, and leg all at once. He only did like a few simple moves too.

If he keeps that stuff up I might not play with him any more.
smile.gif


 
While we're on the subject of Indonesian Martial Arts, does anyone know where I can buy Indonesian knives(not the keris) that are not antiques?

Thanks!


------------------
K. Williams
kel620@aol.com
Modern Arnis Student
 

Here's a link to some decent philipino/indo cutlery on the web.. not the most decorative, but I have heard that they are good steel worth owning. Haven't taken the time to order one yet (can't carry em, too big), but I have been told that they are fighting quality steel.

Damn nice prices, too.

As for the silat, it's queer stuff. I think that I am afraid of it, a little bit, and that isn't something that happens often. Some of the mystical aspects of it are very in depth, and the people who believe them, really, really believe them. I am that kind of person anyway, and the apparently obvious risk both appeals to me and frightens me.. That's the catch.

josh
 
Silat is indeed a concept based art.
They'll give you one little thing and it
suddenly alters everything else you've
learned and makes your previous training that
much more effective.

Donna: Yes, they do like those techniques
where you are pretzelized. It's like jujitsu
except not so pleasant (!)

However, I think sometimes that the technique
our instructor shows us is bred out of his
own head, his own application of the Silat
concepts. Things like a long complicated
chain where you take the enemy down and
squatwalk all over him, torquing his arms,
legs and neck in hideous ways. There's no
way in hell you're going to get that
particular chain off in a fight. It's more
like a flow drill, teaching many small ways
of moving in addition to the many breaks and
locks. For some reason every Indonesian
teacher I've seen pronounces it "bweak"
instead of "break." I don't know why.

Secondly, Paolo, what the hell's with the
music? During class they play this rhythmic
trancy tribal music with what sound like
xylophones, and drums. Then after a while
this chorus of "ow ow ow ow ow" comes in.
This continues, and after a while you can
dimly hear people going "AaaaAAAgh" in the
background, and making noises of serious
pain. My instructor said that there's a
purpose but won't tell me what it is.

One purpose I can think of is to get you used
to the sound of people, like, groaning and
screeching.

Another more sinister purpose is to condition
your Silat skills to that sound, so that when
you hear those sounds your skillset is
triggered. Isn't that a nasty little idea...

Josh: I agree with your last post, only thing
I'll say about it is this: Kali is the name
of a demon Goddess. I tend to believe it as
well; if you look at guys like Herman Suwanda
or other people who are very good at these
arts, especially the esoteric parts, there
is often something funny about their eyes.

[This message has been edited by Asuang (edited 21 December 1999).]
 
aaah! Mysticism! Secret Esoteric Mayhem!

I remember when I trained in Karate, of stories of karatekas who could do a spear strike against the lower ribs ,palm up,
penetrate the skin and pull out the ribcage.
The good old days when all you had to do was to hint that you knew karate and people would back off in terror as if you were a psychotic Zen Master with the strength of Superman.

I can see the trend now: When some jerk gets in your face, just roll your eyes to heaven until only the white shows and chant: "I study Kali! O Great Goddess Accept the sacrifice of this infidel..."

Make 'em run!!!

About the most mysterious aspects of Silat are

#1 Its origins (Some even claim it came from Egypt)--Sounds crazy but then Bruce Lee believed the Chinese arts developed from Greek Pankantrion via India; and Paulo posted "Silat eventually turned into Kali"-- A statement which may be interpreted in a variety of ways. Take your choice.-- The obvious Spanish influence in FMA appears to be a recent discovery, at least by FMAers. Again, whatever appeals to your ego, national pride or sense of romance, grasshopper!

#2 "Why the hell am I doing this? " Uttered by yours truly in practise after landing ungracefully on the floor.

Boxing is deadly; Pros and amateurs die each year. Judo is deadly I studied it as a child (minus chokes and armbars). I hope Judo teachers still have those standards when it comes to teaching children.

BTW, a defensive concept involving headcranks
and chokes: In many systems we're taught that if we're choked from the rear Judo syle,
we should tuck in our chin to prevent our throats from being damaged by the opponent's forearm (Sayonara if your windpipe gets crushed) pull his arm so that our windpipe is in the hollow of his elbow (thus enabling us to get some air) and then execute a counter.

This is O.K. as far as it goes but you better execute the counter very quickly. You see, by putting your chin at the hollow of his elbow
joint, you've just handed the attacker a fulcrum whereby he could twist your neck.

Yep, that's Silat, but any wrestler could have told you the same.




[This message has been edited by J_Ringo (edited 21 December 1999).]
 
Originally posted by joshpowell:

Here's a link ...
Click to expand...

Where's the link?
smile.gif


BTW, this is the first time I've had an excuse to try out the new quoting feature -- click on that new icon next to the "edit" icon and you get the message all ready to paste in as a quote, complete with UBB code to make it look like the quote in this post -- just remember to edit out everything you don't need to quote. Cool!



------------------
-Cougar Allen :{)
--------------------------------------
This post is not merely the author's opinions; it is the trrrrrruth. This post is intended to cause dissension and unrest and upset people, and ultimately drive them mad. Please do not misinterpret my intentions in posting this.
 
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