Simple kitchen knife maintenance

M

maximus83

Joined
Nov 7, 2011
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So I've been looking for a simple approach to maintain kitchen knives for family members who aren't into freehand sharpening, or even a guided system like Sharpmaker. Found an approach that seemed to work, would welcome comments or suggestions.

  • Set a new bevel at 12 dps, using Crystolon coarse. Plan to do this with each kitchen knife, so that they are all consistent and maintained the same way.
  • Sharpen with this progression (tested sharpness using standard @wootzblade tests after each grit; each progression added noticeable sharpness).
    • SiC 320
    • SiC 500
    • AlOx 1K
    • AlOx 6K (only 5 light strokes per side, less than weight of knife).
  • Cut a 16 dps micro-bevel using a 2200 mesh DMT ceramic rod, using an angle guide that mounts right on the rod. Showed the fam how to use this to maintain the micro.
    • Note: Didn't bother stropping, it didn't seem useful as I was already getting the results I wanted.
This progression got a 30-year-old, beat up 'Black Angus' chef knife really sharp. It would pass everything up through the Rizla green cigarette paper cross-grain push cut. And was doing a pretty sweet job slicing tomatoes.

Things I'm interested to hear comments on:
  • Is the above sharpening progression of 4 grits plus a micro-bevel on ceramic really necessary, or is there a way one could streamline, cut out one or two steps in the progression, and get equal results? If somebody knows a way, I'd love to hear it. I tried different techniques with each grit, trying to get max performance, but in the end, it was simpler to keep stepping up to a higher grit until it got where I wanted it to be.
  • Is the 4 dps gap between the secondary edge and the micro too much? Would it noticeably improve cutting performance, or edge durability, if I brought them closer together and went with 12(secondary)/14(micro)?
  • Is the ceramic rod the best option for maintaining the micro? Given the known issues with ceramics, would I be better off having them use an extra-fine grit diamond rod? Or, would it be better if I cut the micro on the last stone in my sequence, and then have them just use a quality smooth steel to maintain the micro?
 
I free hand and usually goes DMT 1200-8000 (the 8000/EE is really worn), for my wife knives, simple Victorinox paring.
I free hand, so I don’t micro. Last one: she’s going to tell me when it needs touch up but won’t do herself.

Recently I tried the 1000 DMD on a different knife and it’s so aggressive that the 8000 worn doesn’t have much effect, leaving it merely polished toothy. Haven’t tried this on her knives.
 
Low quality kitchen knives get ~20 degree per side and 600 grit max if I'm feelin' froggy.

Deburred with white ceramic and maybe a strop too.

Just not worth the time investment for low end Stuff, especially since the user is more then likely to destroy any edge in moments due to misuse also the edge won't last with care either.
 
I normally use a 1k/8k edge set plus micro on the finer stone. This is for my Dexter Chef's knife which has the best steel of my kitchen cutlery, will stick a black olive dropped from about 8" above the edge - won't quite cut it in half.

As it dulls I hit it with stock compound on a Washboard, rough equivalent 4k-6k JIS. It might take several months before it sees a stone again, and might go two weeks between touch-ups. This gets used pretty much daily, mostly for chopping veg on a cutting board. My slicer gets the 1k followed by hard strop. Occasionally I will backhone on a 4k waterstone instead of Washboard.

Wife's knife gets 220 or 400 grit followed by 'steeling' on glazed rim of bowl or coffee cup. Repeat as needed until the edge is drawn out and needs to be taken to a stone again.

I prefer a two step approach, the Chef's knife gets the one additional step as it really helps when chopping hard veg. If I were cutting primarily meats instead of veg I'd probably backhone on 800 grit wet/dry or a 1 or 2k waterstone and leave the edge more toothy.
 
Simple stainless kitchen knives used at home don't need anything complicated. I've found a simple, dual-grit aluminum oxide stone to be sufficient. If you really want to do anything beyond that, a medium Arkansas stone can leave a nice finish on such blades. Especially for non-knife-sharpening maniacs ( like us ;) ), the missing extra nuances afforded by a multi-grit, polishing & microbevelling progression won't ever likely be fully appreciated, if even noticed, by the average kitchen knife user. And worse, there's a good chance all that extra refinement will be wrecked in pretty short order, if the user doesn't fully appreciate and respect the work put into it.

A thinner edge geometry of 25-30° inclusive, and a fully-apexed edge, will make about 97% of the difference, in making a novice knife user actually notice a big improvement in kitchen uses. The rest is just window dressing, for the most part. For touch-up maintenance, I'm finding more and more that steeling the edge will keep the knife working for quite a long while, so long as the edge isn't really abused & beat up by careless use.

Simple knives for simple uses warrant simple sharpening. No need for anything beyond that.


David
 
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My traveling waterstone set (in a gallon ziploc bag) for sharpening most used steels: ~80/220 SiC, 600/1K alumina combo, 2k/5k alumina combo. 15 to 20 dps depends on edge condition & possibly user technique. 0.010 to 0.012" behind edge thick when I've time to burn. Apexed on finest stone grit optimize for minimal time. Progress to finer grit until edge loss stickiness or cap at 5K. If loss of stickness, back down to next coarser grit. Users aren't going to touch up the edge by themselves... I often recommended, if/when they no longer tolerate dulled edges - buy a $2 kiwi, while waiting for my next visit (free probably the sharpest part - ahahaha).
 
BluntCut MetalWorks BluntCut MetalWorks , just realized, you're another sharpener who's gone strop-less. :p At least when you're on the road.

What 2K/5K AloX are you using? ETA: when using a 6K AlOx to finish kitchen knives, man I really like the Ptarmigan.

These are useful tips, swapped into bullets. About the first tip: does doing it that way cause a reduction in toothy-ness of the edge, or not enough to matter?

bluntcut said:
  • Apexed on finest stone grit optimize for minimal time.
  • Progress to finer grit until edge loss stickiness or cap at 5K.
  • If loss of stickness, back down to next coarser grit.
Click to expand...
 
Obsessed with Edges said:
Simple stainless kitchen knives used at home don't need anything complicated. I've found a simple, dual-grit aluminum oxide stone to be sufficient. If you really want to do anything beyond that, a medium Arkansas stone can leave a nice finish on such blades. Especially for non-knife-sharpening maniacs ( like us ;) ), the missing extra nuances afforded by a multi-grit, polishing & microbevelling progression won't ever likely be fully appreciated, if even noticed, by the average kitchen knife user. And worse, there's a good chance all that extra refinement will be wrecked in pretty short order, if the user doesn't fully appreciate and respect the work put into it.

A thinner edge geometry of 25-30° inclusive, and a fully-apexed edge, will make about 97% of the difference, in making a novice knife user actually notice a big improvement in kitchen uses. The rest is just window dressing, for the most part. For touch-up maintenance, I'm finding more and more that steeling the edge will keep the knife working for quite a long while, so long as the edge isn't really abused & beat up by careless use.

Simple knives for simple uses warrant simple sharpening. No need for anything beyond that.


David
Click to expand...

Yep great advice. On the dual-grit thing: the 2-grit progression I've found of the stones I have on hand that will get best results are if I use FortyTwoBlades FortyTwoBlades AF, followed by Ptarmigan to finish. But....that's a HUGE jump, basically 400 ANSI to 6K JIS. It actually gets very good results, and probably more than adequate for kitchen knives as you say. However, I did notice that doing a progression where I add something at about that 1K mid-range grit, makes a difference. So I guess there's a couple of things going on here: what progression gets best results, and also, at what point does it cease to matter on kitchen knives. I think I could get a really good result if I use 42's two stones, but then add my 1K AlOx step right in the middle so: 400 AlOx > 1K AloX > 6K AloX.
 
Tough Tepko 2000/5000 on big river (currently unavail, was around $33). This stone is hard, so will glaze by high rc + carbide rich steels (um wrong stone for that - lol). This 5K produces more refine finishes than shapton pro 5K. Frightening edge for vg10, cpm154 and below...
 
Dude, you've got a knack for finding high-value, low-cost stones. ;)

bluntcut said:
Tough Tepko 2000/5000 on big river (currently unavail, was around $33). This stone is hard, so will glaze by high rc + carbide rich steels (um wrong stone for that - lol). This 5K produces more refine finishes than shapton pro 5K. Frightening edge for vg10, cpm154 and below...
Click to expand...
 
maximus83 said:
Yep great advice. On the dual-grit thing: the 2-grit progression I've found of the stones I have on hand that will get best results are if I use FortyTwoBlades FortyTwoBlades AF, followed by Ptarmigan to finish. But....that's a HUGE jump, basically 400 ANSI to 6K JIS. It actually gets very good results, and probably more than adequate for kitchen knives as you say. However, I did notice that doing a progression where I add something at about that 1K mid-range grit, makes a difference. So I guess there's a couple of things going on here: what progression gets best results, and also, at what point does it cease to matter on kitchen knives. I think I could get a really good result if I use 42's two stones, but then add my 1K AlOx step right in the middle so: 400 AlOx > 1K AloX > 6K AloX.
Click to expand...
That's where the Hellbender stone will come in. In JIS, the Arctic Fox is 700 grit, and the Ptarmigan is a 6k. The Hellbender is a JIS 1500 and raises a light mud so it polishes well and keeps a burr off.
 
Chris "Anagarika" said:
she’s going to tell me when it needs touch up but won’t do herself.
Click to expand...

Yep, pretty much. :rolleyes: However my wife is willing to do the rod-with-angle-guide thing, I think the main issue is it's fast and convenient. Now I just need to figure out whether it's best to keep using that ceramic hone which we already had for a long time, or if I should switch to something like a smooth steel as David mentioned. I'm not really sure there's that much value in her 'honing' the knife every time she steels it, it doesn't feel like that should be necessary and perhaps it would slow metal removal if I just got a traditional steel.
 
maximus83 said:
Yep, pretty much. :rolleyes: However my wife is willing to do the rod-with-angle-guide thing, I think the main issue is it's fast and convenient. Now I just need to figure out whether it's best to keep using that ceramic hone which we already had for a long time, or if I should switch to something like a smooth steel as David mentioned. I'm not really sure there's that much value in her 'honing' the knife every time she steels it, it doesn't feel like that should be necessary and perhaps it would slow metal removal if I just got a traditional steel.
Click to expand...

I've jumped around between using my smooth (polished) steel, an inexpensive grooved steel, and ceramic rods, just to figure out what serves me best with my kitchen knives. I'd suggest starting with a smooth steel first; it'll do the least damage if technique isn't perfect yet, AND, if technique is good, you may see little reason for doing anything more. A smooth steel will actually do what's claimed of most kitchen steels, in that most are thought to just align the edge and not remove much metal. The grooved ones can and will remove metal, though not necessarily a lot; but the smooth steel is essentially a pure edge alignment tool, and almost nothing more. So, used correctly on an edge that's set up for it, it can extend the useful life of a kitchen blade's edge for a long while, without needlessly scrubbing metal away from the blade over time.

With a grooved steel, if technique isn't good (angle too high, too much pressure), it can make for some horrid burring issues on a softish stainless kitchen knife. If so, it may discourage a new user from relying on it very much. I refined my own touch in using the smooth steel for a while, then started playing more with the grooved one. If held angle is good, starting conservatively LOW and gently raising the spine to 'skim' the cheeks of the apex with a light touch, results can get impressively scary-sharp on the grooved steel. I'm liking it enough now, I'm considering buying a higher-quality grooved steel, and I'm also even beginning to use it on some of my non-kitchen, EDC knives in similar steels like 420HC, etc. I even have a tiny 'Sheffield'-marked pocket steel I got from Victorinox years ago (for Swiss Army knives), that is also working nicely on many of the same knives, thanks to learning the 'touch' on my other steels.

As for the ceramic rods, they can also do well, or very well. But after seeing how effective the regular kitchen steels can be on the simpler kitchen blades, I see little reason for the extra metal-removal capability of the the ceramic, UNLESS you're also going to be using it on more wear-resistant blades in the kitchen, like VG-10 and beyond.


David
 
My best advice on sharpening kitchen knives is not to do it.
WHAAAAAAAaaaaa?
What I am saying is cut clean grit free food on REAL . . . Soft . . . Edge friendly cutting boards and you won't have to sharpen much.
Gosh ! That's no fun !
you may be saying.

We use our kitchen knives seven days a week, we almost never eat out
and
my significant other is known here in Blade Forums as " The Chef".
Do you hear what I'm saying?
I know that if I picked up the knife I use the most, known here as "The Little Monster" that it would easily shave arm hair and last I checked would whittle hair in places along the regularly used areas of the edge. I literally can not remember the last time I sharpened it but it was a year ago or so.

The Chef's main knife, a big assed Japanese knife out of some decent steel, probably VG-10 I'd have to go look it up, was just frighteningly sharp . . . I tested it on a thumb nail two days ago when she was asking me about a ding in the edge. The edge sank ever so slightly into my thumb nail in that sickening way that tells me it is hair whittling and not the slightest bit convexed.

I touched it up about two months ago after using it to chop a huge block of chocolate into chocolate chips. The only thing I used to align the edge and touch it up was a Spyderco Ultra Fine triangle stone. Before that it went a year or so with no attention and did I mention seven day a week use.

We use ONLY thick white plastic cutting boards. We have all sizes. One is used only for spicy food; garlic etc.

So yah
Old Japanese Shokunin proverb says "He is a master who sharpens least and has the sharpest tools".

I would add and the right tools = soft cutting board.
PS: sorry about the indecipherable words, had to go off in a hurry, fixed the text now.
 
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