Simplicity VS Complexity

[sing]

Okay. I want to premise that I consider myself a total neophyte when it comes to FMA's, having only trained for several years, getting to classes whenever I can (about once a week), training on my own and sparring with other MA friends in and out of class.

I am learning Pekiti Tirsia with someone affiliated with the Tuhon Bill MacGrath group and Lanada Escrima with George Brewster. Thusfar, PT strikes me as incredibly complex with so many variations in drills with sticks, knife, empty hand and permutations/combinations therein. With Lanada a lot work has been focused off the the five strikes and defenses/counters to these. I know Lanada has other drills and patterns but we seem to focus a lot in class on and off cingo tero.

What is interesting is that sparring in real time, the players regardless of styles seem to revert to the basics around the five strikes. I don't see a lot of the "fancy" stuff (for me that is... perhaps, "basic" to the advanced) like multiple hits (beyond two strikes) leading to disarms and what not.

Again, I recognize that "basic" and "complex" are relative terms depending on where one is at with their years and experience in training. So far from what I have seen, what really differentiate the advance players I have seen from the neophyte are the attributes of footwork/distance/timing and not stick moves/techniques.

Anyway, I would appreciate other perspectives on this. REMINDER/PLEA: I am truly curious and a respectful beginner. Don't bash me on this.

sing

AKTI #A000356

[This message has been edited by sing (edited 03-06-2000).]

 

[Myers]

Hi sing:
I think you're right on. The difference between neophyte and master is not in amount of techniques, but rather in the attributes they have developed. I think a lot of the more "complex" systems have such extensive training methods in order to actively develop such attributes. Much of it may be things you would never see in actual application, or only see when the conditions happen to be just right. But the attributes developed translate directly back to the basics. But I also think these attributes can be developed in a simpler system that includes realistic sparring, and perhaps even develops them more quickly. The danger in a more complicated system is that it can depart from "natural" movement patterns and become too mechanical. I sometimes think some methods over-analyze certain things rather than just moving and flowing naturally. I have seen this much more in Chinese systems than in FMAs. So I guess what I'm saying is...yes! I agree with you!

Keith

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Attitude Is Everything!

 

[Fenris]

I agree with Myers. I have trained in Tirada Tirsia (which was developed from PT) for about a year and am beginning to see some of the method to the madness. I still have to say that compared to some other arts with 144 strikes and defenses or whatever, it still is pretty simple.

But for the more complex movements and sets you probably won't be using them in sparring or fighting. But these movements do train sensitivity as well as showing you openings. Each disarm for example allows you to go down many different paths with a strike, multiple strikes, double stick strikes or takedowns/joint locks.

I think its structured this way so you can tailor it to your own fighting style and fight the way you want to fight. A lot of the movements also train your live hand extensively and force you to coordinate the two hands properly. I don't want to say what a lot of karate/kungfu people say which is "just do the kata or form and eventually these useless movements will become apparent," because these movements usually don't.

Usually these minor movements have a direct fighting and practical application and you should immediately ask your instructor the second you have a question.

Jason

 

[stdalire]

Hi Sing: You have mentioned:- "I know Lanada has other drills and patterns but we seem to focus a lot in class on and off cingo tero."

The style Cinco Tero (Five Styles) is just a part of Filipino Arnis). It cannot stand of its own as one martial arts style.

Perhaps the following words are commonly used in Arnis.

1. Cinco Tero
2. Payong
3. Dose Pares
4. Abaniko
5. Tirsia
6. Doble Doblada
and many other terms are just styles or techniques as part of the original Filipino Arnis.

What I know so far, the nearest to the original old arnis is Modern Arnis as it made inovations to the old style of arnis that match to the current trend of martial arts.

To the old arnis player, of course they don't know what is Modern Arnis, only they know the Word "Arnis".

Thanks for having the chance to explain some.



[This message has been edited by stdalire (edited 03-06-2000).]

 

[Tuhon Bill McGrath]

I friend in the medical profession once told me "10% of what I learned in medical school covers 90% of what I need each day. I use the other 90% of my training only 10% of the time." I asked him why don't medical schools just teach that 10%. "Because you will need that other 90% for one out of ten patients; plus my 10% is different from a cardiologit's 10% or a brain surgeon's 10%."

Pekiti-Tirsia has so many techniques and drills because it's so hard to tell which "10%" will fit a particular student when they first walk in the door. Two students learning in the same school at the same time will find that a different "10%" works best for them. Sometimes this is based on body size and type and sometimes it is based purely on personality. We compound the problem when we ask "10% in which weapon?" One guy might choose to specialize in single stick, another empty hands, another knife. Is this person a police officer or is he in the military? A teenager looking to go into tounaments or a 30-something looking to protect his family? Is an opponent likely to be armed? If so, with what? How many opponents might there be? What level of training does a likely opponent have? Will the student be fighting alone or as part of a group?

After 25 years in the Pekiti-Tirsia system I honestly don't see any one technique as "complex." What can be complex is trying to memorize the large number of techniques in the system. But this is only necessary if you plan on becoming an instructor. Once you have the basics down, it might consider specializing in a particular "10%" of one weapon until you get really good at it. Figuring out which 10% of which weapon is best for you is part of a learning process you will have to go through as you come to understand yourself and the Pekiti-Tirsia system better.

Regards,
Tuhon Bill McGrath

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Visit the Pekiti-Tirsia web site at: WWW.PEKITI-TIRSIA.COM

 

[sing]

Tuhon,

Wow, nice to have a response directly from you. You can certainly make the "complex" simple from what I've seen at my one Connecticut seminar with you a couple of years back. One can hope to achieve the same ease of movement/techniques with much time and practice.

Actually, I was mulling what Fenris wrote and now your post. Some of the PT drills certainly are overwhelming with length and string of moves/techniques involved. But, yes, I can see how some of the drills can be broken down and seperated as more simple moves/techniques that have quick application.

As many techniques and drills there are in PT, Jack maintains that one can begin to see the core principles after awhile and that the many of the variety of techniques become permutations of the core principles. I'll have to be just patient, train and hopefully see that myself.

Thank you for a response. Hope to make the upcoming NH seminar.

sing aka david moy

 

[Donna Barnas]

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[Samuel]

Again, my two cents (actually two cents I borrowed from Guro Inosanto).

This is in agreement with Tuhon McGrath. If you and your friends go to a buffet, all your plates will most likely be different (but at least the entire menu is there for your choosing).

If you fight, you don't need to know everything; only that which works for you. If you teach, however, you need to know everything so you can pass it along.

[This message has been edited by Samuel (edited 03-10-2000).]