Size matters.

Wild Bill 1896 · Jul 15, 2000

It appears to me that organized competion is prejudiced against smaller knives. Why is this? My favorites are in the ten to twelve inch range. Why must I throw a short sword if I want to play the game? What is the reasoning behind this?

I apologise if you have addressed this previously, but I was not here.

Bobby Branton · Jul 14, 2000

You are allowed to throw a 12 inch knife in our competitions. Anything smaller has proven to be very dangerous as they tend to bounce and fly around a lot. They are called floaters and tingers in our industry.There is a place for all of these throwers. A 13 1/2 throwing knife is far from a Short Sword.
Hold your own contest and you can allow anything you want as YOU will have to assume the liability for any injuries that might occur.

Bobby Branton

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AKTI member #1000
President South Carolina Association of Knifemakers
President American Knife Throwers Alliance

http://www.brantonknives.com

[This message has been edited by Knifeslinger (edited 07-14-2000).]

Patte Gauche · Jul 14, 2000

I concur with Bobby. You can easily demonstrate the rebound difference in size by taking a 10 inch knife and a heavier 14 incher and throwing them from a distance of one step greater than your usual 1 turn distance... notice I did not say 1 step closer.

My bet is that the lighter (not necessarily the smaller) knife will demonstrate more frequent and forceful bouncebacks.

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matthew rapaport · Jul 16, 2000

I've been living with this misleading notion since I got mixed up with professional knife throwers in 1995 or so.

It is misleading for two reasons...

1. There is nothing magic about 12 inches and 1 ounce per inch. There are good throwers that are no more violent than any 12" McEvoy for example an 11" Karp, or the Moeller Viper II at 10.5 inches. No I'm not talking about a little 6 inch knife weighing 3 ounces either, but drawing the line at 12" is a little too much IMHO.

2. The second reason is that any knife no matter what its size and weight (indeed the larger and heavier ones are even more dangerous in this regard) can take an odd unpredicatble and quite strong bounce in just about any direction if one hits the edge of a target. Knives of all sizes ricochet dangerously when they strike the edges of targets and more significantly, they can ricochet towards the audience, something that reflections off the target face do far less often.

From what I can see, the 12" 12 oz rule was a bias of Harry McEvoy and some contemporary competitive throwing organizations have simply preserved that prejudice. Don't get me wrong, you've got to draw the line somewhere, and Harry's biases might be a good place to start, but I'd like to see competition organizers be more up front about the source of the size limits and not fall back on a tired safety rational that isn't entirely accurate.

Bobby Branton · Jul 17, 2000

Matthew,
The reason I decided on 12 inches actually had nothing to do with Harry McEvoy. After a slight accident during a practice session during the First annual AKTA championships I, with the guidance of several experienced throwers felt that we needed to set up parameters regarding the limits on knife size. We saw several throwers bouncing smaller knives all across the room. It was a decision that I stand by. I do not want anyone to throw a 18 or 20 inch knife either. As I mentioned earlier, there is a place for all throwing implements but I have not figured out where. I am toying with the idea of having a open event where you can throw whatever you want but I will have to talk with more people and see how this is going to affect the safety of the other throwers. As I mentioned you can hold your own contest and throw what ever you want. Thats whats nice about living in the good ole U.S.A.

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AKTI member #1000
President South Carolina Association of Knifemakers
President American Knife Throwers Alliance

http://www.brantonknives.com

Jeff Clark · Jul 18, 2000

It sounds to me like you just need safer targets. If you use a crushable, pliable, or swinging target it will absorb energy from the knife and greatly reduce bounce back. Most of the time I use stacked cardboard that is free hanging and hanging carpet over my backstop. It is a rare knife design that can bounce off of these.

Patte Gauche · Jul 18, 2000

My guess is that a 14 oz. knife thrown 120 times each by 20+ people would tear up a cardboard target quite viciously. This is the scenario you deal with at a competition. I don't think the log face target will be replaced as they are cheap and work extremely well. Most competitions I have seen use a target and a backstop as well as a sizable safety area. These precautions combined with a moderately sized and weighted knife seem to produce very safe events. I have not seen a body strike by a bounced knife in my four years of organized throwing.

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matthew rapaport · Jul 19, 2000

I don't want to get too radical here. These contests demonstrate certain kinds of skills with a limited class of implements and that's just fine, but I think it should be opened up just a bit as there are some very fine throwers that fall under 12 inches in length, and then there are a few that meet the 12" requirement, but are a little light.

If I remember correctly, the first year or two of AKTA and PKT competitions, the 12" rule was enforced, but no one even mentioned anything about weight. Suddenly in the third year, not only was there a length requirement, but a weight requirement. I thought this was bordering on the over restrictive, but that's just my opinion...

Yes I could run any sort of contest I want, but if I or anyone else wants to compare scores with the standard-setting organizations, then you have to limit yourself to the same implement set, target sizes, distances, etc.

[This message has been edited by matthew rapaport (edited 07-19-2000).]

Patte Gauche · Jul 19, 2000

I have researched all my AKTA docs and cannot find a reference to knife weight requirements. I do remember the size being refined to 12 to 16 inches in length and no more than 2.5 inches in width, but again no specifics on weight. I think the weight is assumed to be closer to adequate with a larger knife.

Bobby may have to clarify the documentation on weight issue.

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Bobby Branton · Jul 20, 2000

I have not been firm on the length ,weight restriction, nor do I want to. There is no arguement that the Viper II is a very fine and stable knife. That is why Harald developed the Viper pro so that it would be legal for competition. I think that it is close to 12 inches. One way of thinking is that as a rule a 10 inch knife cannot be thrown by the handle at 12 feet. If we let 10 inch knives be legal how about the Viper III which is approx 8 inches. It too is a very stable knife. No, Matthew at my events we will not call the knife cops in with scales and ruler to keep you from throwing your Viper II. I call my events one and two turn events but I have not made a fuss if someone wants to throw a one and a half spin as long as they are behind the 12 foot line.
If you do not have some sort of restrictions then you have people who want to throw hatchets , stars, etc in competition. Matthew , You make the rules so that every thrower can be equal no matter if he throws a 6 inch spike or a 16 inch professional model and I will look at it. IMHO if we get any closer than 12 feet we might as well play Pin the Tail on the Donkey. BTW, It is 12 oz we just do not enforce it. I pretty much let the throwers police themselves,then I step in and make the call if safety is involved. Maybe you had a bad experience at a competition. If so I would like to hear about it.

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AKTI member #1000
President South Carolina Association of Knifemakers
President American Knife Throwers Alliance

http://www.brantonknives.com