Snow gear

P

PayetteRucker

Joined
Aug 4, 2009
Messages
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For all you winter and alpine climbers and backcountry skiers...
Getting into Telemark this year because in this area it's undoubtedly one of the best ways to experience the outdoors year-round. But when the powder piles up taller than the lodgepoles, instead of tomahawks and machetes occupying the tool straps, you have shovels, snow saws etc. Fire and fishing kits get replaced with avalanche beacons, stoves and fuel. Does anyone know what to look for in snow shovels, saws, etc? Any particular product reviews? As far as avalanche safety, how many hundreds of dollars do you have to invest in a beacon to get one that will do you any good? For a semi-budget minded person, when considering efficiency, weight and volume of fuel and burner, what would you go with? Assuming cold and high altitude conditions, as well. Thanks. The current plan for kit looks like this:

Volkl Amaruq 177's, with factory skins
Hammerhead bindings
Garmont Excursion boots
Mountainsmith Maverick pack
Kelty Mistral -20 sleeping bag
Various wool sweaters-DoN, HH, TNF etc
Canada Goose Manitoba Jacket
 
I have a BCA B1 shovel, compact and lightweight, but sturdy enough to really move snow- it also available in a combo w/ probe

http://www.backcountryaccess.com/product/b1/

for temps down to close to 0 I use a MSR Windpro, the key to use canister stoves in cold weather is being able to invert the canister, the Windpro allows this w/ just a slight turn of a wrench where the fuel line goes into the stove
 
I have a Black Diamond shovel, D9 i think. Anyway, they've made some updated models that look pretty sweet. I also have the snow-saw that fits inside it, but together they are a hefty combo. A short handle is really all you need - especially for setting tents, etc. For a avy-rescue, just having a shovel blade is a huge improvement b/c seconds count....

Otherwise, for stoves i use a Primus Himalaya Vari-Fuel and it is awesome. It's all-metal construction wins the day *every time*. Incidently, i use white gas exclusively once temps get into/around freezing (well, when i'm in the States that is....). Here in Europe white gas in impossible to find.

I used to use MSR stoves (and sold them when i worked retail so got a great discount), but the plastic/composite pump housing needs to be replaced with metal of some sort - i've broken several and that utterly sux. The Dragon Fly burner is easily the best stove design i've seen in nearly 30 years of this kinda stuff, but i sold it to fund my Primus. I don't even look at Whisper Lites or similar.

Find a stove with ALL METAL construction and you're gonna be fine. I'd plan around $110 or so for a stove and a couple fuel bottles.

Unfortunately, i don't have any avy gear. Fortunately, avy's are rare around here, but still......

Garmont's are spendy, but the quality is there - you only cry once when you buy the best....
 
Thanks much for the reviews gents. I got hands on with both the BCA and Black Diamond shovel line today and the biggest thing I noticed about both models is that the telescoping handle shafts and the shovel head rattle at the joints. Maybe they were designed to fit in cold weather so when they get outside that won't be an issue, but in the shop there seemed to be a ton of play from handle to shovel. The Windpro was also the suggested model in the shop today, though I am really starting to look at white gas based on price and the amount of boiled water per ounce that you get. It seems to be incredibly efficient and relatively light weight. Any experiences with the Primus Express Lander? I have a source for 46 dollars and all the reviews I've read say it's the most reliable variable-output multifuel stove out there. From the pics the pump assembly appears to be aluminum. I tried on some Garmonts and found the size I need, and I am extremely impressed with the comfort of the boot allaround. In walk mode they feel like a pair of hikers. They're lightweight, though of course sacrificing downhill power and support, but I think for a beginner having lighter easier touring boots are going to be better for excelling in the climbs and surviving the downhills. I might get a second pair of downhill specific boots for trips where we plan on primarily downhill skiing versus touring.

As far as only crying once, I dearly pray that that is the case. My expert buddy says 'go cheap on things like poles, you lose/break em all the time'. The more I learn about the 22 Designs Hammerheads the more I think it's the perfect binding for me. They are supposed to be incredibly durable, and because the suspension is at the front of the mount instead of towards the heel, it makes heel lift and thus climbing alot easier. Still pretty much stuck on the Amaruqs, the only real contender for do-it-all plus quality construction is the Black Diamond Aspects-and I have yet to read any kind of review on them. Beacons are incredibly expensive and I still have no idea what to look for. The good news is the husky that will be touring with us is very good at sniffing out buried people, as well as hearing the beacons, and also capable when it comes to digging. I may need to get one eventually, the more I learn about this pooch the more I realize just how useful they are, especially in the winter.

Now all I need to do is convince BSU that I'm a state resident and have been living here for the last 3 years... they decided to charge me 5,000 dollars in non-resident fees this semester because someone lost all the paperwork I provided last year as proof. That 5,000 dollars is going to cover a pair of XC boots, and the whole kit and cabootle for Tele skiing, including IO BIO baselayers, Victorinox wool backcountry pants, a Dale knitshell, helmet, goggles, poles, snow tools, avalanche kit, skis, boots, a whole new drawer of Wigwam socks and all the other necessary gear. I took my Eberlestock pack in yesterday with a blown zipper and had the opportunity to talk to Glen about designing a snowsports specific pack. As a biathlete, hunter, backpacker etc he is also a winter enthusiast and there's a definite niche out there for a pack durable enough to handle the rigors of backcountry winter touring. I think the new V69 is a great start, we'll see. Again, thanks for the experience, and any other advice would be much appreciated.
 
^ I'd love to see what he comes up with for a winter touring pack :) I've handled a couple of his hunting packs and they appear top drawer

good luck w/ your dealings with the school, hopefully they make it right!
 
Backcountry skiing is where it's at, it's fast up and even faster down [I hung-up my snowshoes a long time ago], but you have to be really careful in mountainous areas with respect to avalanches. The FIRST thing I'd recommend you do is take an avalanche course. This will teach you how to avoid them in the first place and how to deal with the repercussions should you or a mate get caught in one. It's not about the gear, it's about knowing how to use it.

Shovel: Avalanche debris is dense and often very difficult to shovel. Make sure your shovel blade is metal [aluminum]. Other than that, a two piece shovel enables you to pack a little easier. Also consider ergonomics like can I wear the type of gloves/mitts I use with this shovel. G3, Black Diamond, Ortovox, Life-Link etc are all good brands. A decent sized blade will assist in moving a lot of snow. G3 also makes a great snow saw called the "bone saw".

Stove: For higher-altitude, cold weather travel, there's only one stove: MSR XGK-EX. It's reliable, melts snow effectively and is robust. Canister stoves are completely useless in cold weather/higher altitude. A few years back [for testing purposes], I tried to melt and boil 2 litres worth of snow [@ 5500 in -10C conditions]. The process took 45 minutes with a canister stove. The XGK-EX can do this in 5.

Probe: Anything in the 2-3 metre range. I have aluminum and carbon fibre ones. Again, Black Diamond, G3, Ortovox etc. all great brands.

Beacon: Beacons are tough-to-learn/use tools. They're getting better, but require a lot of practice. I have a BCA Tracker [definitely a popular model], Ortovox makes some good ones, and the Mammut Barryvox is said to be one of the best. The newer digital models are excellent and make what was once a very difficult process a lot easier. Get out with your mates, bury a beacon and try and find it ... it's great to do these exercises.

Books: Two good books to read: Mountaineering-Freedom of the Hills and Free Skiing. There are also various avalanche specific books put out by a publisher called "The Mountaineers" [same publisher of "Mountaineering"]

Have fun! Be safe. Should be a good winter.
 
Wow, again, incredible info. I couldn't believe my eyes at how efficient climbing is with a pair of skins, and just how steep you can use em. At that point snowshoes really don't make much sense when you can ascend Sawtooths-grade snowpack with all your gear and get glide in the process. I remember running around with ELT hunting teams in Civil Air Patrol in high school and figure hunting a beacon should be easier than those big analog elper antennas, though some practice sessions are in order. Do you think something like the Avalung would be necessary? Can I get away with a pair of Black Diamond's schnazzy probe poles, or will I want a dedicated probe? At this point I'm sold on BCA's extending Arsenal B2 with the saw-the new model with the torsion design. I'll check out the XGK-EX. Redpoint, I'd love to do some skiing in BC. Do you think an ice axe would be necessary for pack-the-pooch pitches, a snow anchor or for carving out igloos? Something light and simple like the Black Diamond Raven would seem to make alot of sense but if it isn't necessary I'd just as soon save myself 70 bones and spend it on a new knife or a set of wool undies.
 
PayetteRucker,

I'd stick to a dedicated probe. The ski-pole probes are a bit fiddly and pretty short. You want to deploy quickly. I ski with carbon Life-Link probe poles, but they're merely a back-up. The XGK-EX is a fantastic stove, but it sucks for anything beyond melting snow. It's really a winter/extreme conditions stove. In the winter, it's all about melting snow so this is your weapon of choice. Ice axes only become necessary when the temp dips really low and you get boilerplate snow. If I'm bagging a peak in winter, I'll bring crampons [lightweight aluminum crampons are ideal], but bring a proper axe [i.e. with a steel pick], I've heard about way too many lightweight aluminum axes failing. The Grivel "Air Tech Racing" axe is a super sweet and very light full service axe. Axes and lightweight crampons are always a good idea should you be venturing through terrain in cold conditions, on glaciers, or traverses where you're above cliff bands or other terrain traps. Additionally, if the snow is boilerplate hard and/or icy [i.e. when skins can no longer be trusted], ski crampons are also advisable. The BC Coast Mtns [where I ski the most] are pretty mild temp wise. A shovel is all that is necessary when digging-out snow caves; however, a saw would definitely speed things up.
 
redpoint said:
Stove: For higher-altitude, cold weather travel, there's only one stove: MSR XGK-EX. It's reliable, melts snow effectively and is robust. Canister stoves are completely useless in cold weather/higher altitude. A few years back [for testing purposes], I tried to melt and boil 2 litres worth of snow [@ 5500 in -10C conditions]. The process took 45 minutes with a canister stove. The XGK-EX can do this in 5.
Click to expand...

My Primus Omnifuel will obviously boil water faster than my Soto OD-1R, but the tiny little Soto canister stove has worked fine for me at 13,500' and down to -16*. While the MSR XGK is a great stove (that I also own), it's not the only option.
 
"canister stoves are completely useless in cold weather/higher altitude" I guess you better tell that to my Windpro, because evidently it doesn't know any better- I've used at just above 0 (that would be w/ a F) @ 10,000'- they key to canister stove use in the cold is to invert the canister- w/ a remote canister stove that's pretty easy to do.

it melts snow as good as any other stove I've used
 
A saw is definitely cheap enough to justify, and based on the videos I've been watching on shelter prep it seems way too practical to leave at home (Especially if it can be packed in the handle of a shovel). Thanks for the advice on the probe. That Grivel axe is a beaut. The Raven has good reviews but... Hammer forged carbon head versus cast stainless... hmmm. May well be worth justifying the extra cash.
 
mtwarden said:
"canister stoves are completely useless in cold weather/higher altitude" I guess you better tell that to my Windpro, because evidently it doesn't know any better- I've used at just above 0 (that would be w/ a F) @ 10,000'- they key to canister stove use in the cold is to invert the canister- w/ a remote canister stove that's pretty easy to do.

it melts snow as good as any other stove I've used
Click to expand...

Funny, that's the exact stove I'm referring to [I have three stoves: MSR Dragonfly, MSR WindPro, and MSR XGK-EX]. Maybe it's the stove, maybe it's the fuel blend, but I find the MSR WindPro to be useless in cold weather. I use the inversion trick all the time and use reflectors etc. I've also found it to be useless in light winds [blows the flame out]. At the time of that ill-fated trip, I was using a 450g bottle of Primus Power Gas. I'm not trying to start an argument about stoves, canister stoves have their place [spring, summer, fall], but you can't compare the performance of a MSR WindPro to that of an MSR EKG-EX ... it's no contest in cold weather. Another issue with canister stoves is that you need a pretty full canister to ensure decent performance; when you dip below half the fuel volume, performance plummets - not the case with liquid fuel. Inverting the canister helps somewhat, but in my experience, it wasn't enough. Additionally, the WindPro is the exception, not the rule when it comes to canister stoves; most canister stoves are not 'remote' i.e. the stove mounts directly to canister which means you can't invert the bottle.
 
redpoint said:
Additionally, the WindPro is the exception, not the rule when it comes to canister stoves; most canister stoves are not 'remote' i.e. the stove mounts directly to canister which means you can't invert the bottle.
Click to expand...

agreed 100% :), that's why I and others chose (and recommend) that stove; having a pre-heat tube also helps- another feature most canister don't have

the XGK is a great winter stove- not arguing that point, but the WindPro has provided many good service in the winter (year round as well which might be something a person is considering when choosing a stove as well)- looks like ymdv
 
I ordered the Lander Express. At 46 dollars it seems like a low cost alternative to the XGK (all metal pump assembly) and all the reviews are raving about durability, light weight and small collapsible volume. Also picked up a Primus 1.4 liter pot for melting snow for 19 bucks. Any suggestions on insulated water bottles? Is it worth trying to store water or is melting snow and consuming immediately the only practical way?
 
several outfits make an insulated holder for a widemouth nalgene (OR for one), additionally store the bottle upside down

if you have any old ccf pads around you can make your own pretty easy too
 
doh, I just chopped one up last night. Perfecto. Made myself a seat cushion so I don't get my bum wet playing sheephead in an igloo.
 
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