So how long till steel quality plateaus?

S

SlippyShayne

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Mar 28, 2013
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Well although I do not follow the evolution of steel very closely, it seems to me that ther is kind of a trend going on.

A new super steel is introduced and then it is only used in high end customs. Then after a while, some new super steels come along and push the older ones into production knives. This can been seen in how now you can get s30v steel knives in 60-70$ knives.

So my question is, how far away do you think we are from hitting a plateau in steel quality. It just seems to me that eventually we'll reach a point where we find an optimal molecular formula and ht (and at that point it will probably be too expensive).
 
I think that as "exotic" steels get more and more popular, and production knife companies start to use steels that were considered "exotic" 3-5 years ago you will get two things:
1- you will have an ever changing "standard" as to what steel should be, and
2- the old reliables will come back. One day someone will use 440c and rave about it and a new generation of young knife users will have never heard of it.

I kind of compare it to music. You have your true musician, he's great and possesses all the qualities of what embodies the term musician. Then a new fad comes around and people forget about the musician. Then one day little Jonny finds his dads record stash and listens to the original musician and is impressed by it.
 
I can't see any plateau of steel technology any time soon, if ever. There are too many varied uses that require different steel characteristics, for any one technology to provide a 'fits all' scenario.
 
Yeah I doubt there will ever be a steel that dominates ever single category but a few that each have they're own niche. I just figure, with the technology to affect changes on the microscopic level and alter tiny percentages of the elements involved, it's only a matter of a decade or two before we get to the point where anything better would have ridiculous cost.
 
The exotic supersteels will be come cheaper to produce, but low cost production knives have to be "resharpen friendly" to average consumers.
 
I see it differently. Companies like Spyderco and ZT are pretty much on the "cutting edge" when it comes to using the supersteels in production or sprint runs. Meanwhile many custom or "mid tech" makers are sticking to the stand-bys (s30v, S35VN, etc).
 
I believe there will come a day when metal knives will be out of fashion, and today's owners will rue the day they made such a big deal over knife steels, and all we'll have will be bio-lab grown super ceramics for blades.
 
Alnamvet68 said:
I believe there will come a day when metal knives will be out of fashion, and today's owners will rue the day they made such a big deal over knife steels, and all we'll have will be bio-lab grown super ceramics for blades.
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Yup, or a steel that won't rust, won't dull, won't break. Then a pocket light saber and everyone will rave about how it toasts your bread as you slice it.
 
It may already have. Since every steel has different characteristics and features brought out by heat treating. There has been for years now. If a steel has too much of one thing, it will lack something else somewhere else. I haven't seen any steel that can hold an edge no matter what, while absorbing shock, avoiding brittleness, and being reasonably priced.
 
MRaymond said:
I see it differently. Companies like Spyderco and ZT are pretty much on the "cutting edge" when it comes to using the supersteels in production or sprint runs. Meanwhile many custom or "mid tech" makers are sticking to the stand-bys (s30v, S35VN, etc).
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but things like s90v, s110v, etc... were well in use by certain custom makers well before they were put into production knives. And this is the usual trend UNLESS a production company basically goes to the steel producers and has them produce a new steel to their standards. Which I think is rare, haha.

a select few custom makers almost always lead with the latest steels, and it takes the really good companies like spyderco and ZT a few years to bring them out to production.

Mid techs just stay nice and comfy with their status quo of charging triple the cost to produce knives half as good with mediocre materials :p
 
Whoa, whoa, whoa. Mid techs are triple the cost and half as good? How much are those new ZT's gonna be?

Hinderer would be surprised to learn his mid techs are half as good as his ZT designs.

And what knife exists for 1/3 the cost of a Sebenza that is twice as good? Anyone smell popcorn?
 
goodeyesniper said:
Mid techs just stay nice and comfy with their status quo of charging triple the cost to produce knives half as good with mediocre materials :p
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Oh so true... And I hate to agree because some of my favorite knives fall into that category. The fact (well, fact in my head anyway) is that you will find knives made with newer, more exotic and expensive materials, and built with (sometimes) far fewer problems, with even better warranties(!) than the companies that sell mid techs for hundreds of dollars more. Of course I have one in my pocket as I write this so I'm not helping the situation! :D

As for steel... I don't see the stuff fading into the history books anytime soon. Maybe never. Whoever said that they see "old" tech steels like 440C making a resurgence, I agree wholeheartedly. In fact, I think it's already happening with carbon steel.

What happened in my case was that I bought into the hype, I bought several "super steel" knives, and then a terrible thing happened. I eventually had to sharpen them. Forward moving SHARPENING technology is what will make crazy alloy steels viable imo. But at the time all I had was stones and a humble Lansky. Not much fun that. Then I stumbled upon high hardness high carbon steel. What a revelation! Um... What were the perceived downsides that made this stuff obsolete in the first place? Oh yeah, rust. As an enthusiast I can manage that, and technology is even advancing to help in that area too. I know a lot of others here have totally fallen in love with their various Carbone Opi's and there is a whole new crop of people getting (back) into slipjoints and traditionals (myself included).

Nah, I don't think steel is going away. I just think things are evolving. Maybe one day soon we'll start to see Spydercos and BKC's in Cerakoted 1095. Wouldn't THAT be sweet!

;)
 
When they become too hard for abbrasives to cut them. Unless they come out with mini waterjet sharpeners.
 
If you can manage rust, you can strop and steel high carbide steels to maintain their sharpness. I almost never need to sharpen my super steels. They strop and steel back to hair popping sharp in just a few minutes.

But you do bring up a good point, maintaining field sharpness is tougher with super steels, especially modern high alloy steels like S90V or A11 class if you chip up the edge. Toughness is a good trait in this case.

I think we may start to see more nitrogen based steels that are low alloy and high alloy.
 
TriviaMonster said:
And what knife exists for 1/3 the cost of a Sebenza that is twice as good? Anyone smell popcorn?
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I can think of one that is almost as good for 1/3rd the price, all things considered. The Gayle Bradley. It definitely isn't 2 times as good.
 
I want to see more niobium alloyed steels. Niobium is a fascinating element that adds almost exclusively positive qualities to steel. Take 110V vs 90V for example. 110 can be run up to 63-64 in some cases where 60 is about max for S90 with similar toughness. 110 is an absolute beast to work with...doesn't get any softer than low mid 40s before ht and work hardens like mad.

One other comment is you've got to be careful evaluating super steels from large outfits. They almost never harden these steels to their potential. Elmax at 58 is silly....m390 at 59 is silly...a composite 110v blade at 58 is futile. I understand why but the point remains. A 110V blade on a zt or one you buy from Phil Wilson is gonna be apples and zebras.
 
I think the "new" nitrogen alloys are pretty close. Very rust resistant, edgeholding on par with steels like S90V, tough, and from what I've heard sharpen up fairly easy, what's not to love. Of course there's stuff like CTS XHP which is very similar to D2 alloy wise but performs in a VERY different manner due to the production process. Who knows what gem will just "pop up" out of nowhere with new production methods.
 
Nice to see a good conversation starting. I agree with a lot that has been said and I agree that there is nothing wrong with carbon steels. They've been around for a long time and have a proven history as well. I like what was said by OTK and someone else, it'll be interesting to see these "new" mix steels. Also, I find heat treating is starting to steal the show as a lot of enthusiast realize a well done heat treat is as important as the steel choice (which the edge cutting test proves).
 
Very doubtful it would ever plateau, not unless knife nuts quit demanding the latest greatest super steel.
Until then, suppliers will continue to tweak and improve their process and formula.
 
Fellas, heat treating is much more important than steel. Befor HT all this steel is worthless as a knife. 1070 heat treated by a master will kill 110v heat treated incorrectly.

Heat treating something properly is a minimum condition. This is of paramount importance. Guys...I've made and tested lots out of the best of new steels. I usually use Peters... They vacuum harden and cryo treat, and test every piece.
 
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