So, what would it take...

T

TedGamble

Joined
Mar 25, 2005
Messages
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MontanaSteelMan posted in my "Got an Import by Mistake" thread of the rumor that perhaps TBLLC will be moving production to TN and potentially to PA.

This got me to thinking... What will it take for us to be accepting of the New Generation of Schrades. I'm not talking about acceptance from a collectors standpoint, but acceptance as a product that we would be willing to purchase and use daily.

It's not Taylor's fault that Schrade had to close its doors. I don't blame him for wanting to capitalize on the branding. But, let's say that TBLLC does take aggressive measures to improve the products such that the quality is indeed equal to (dare I be so bold as to say maybe even better than) those that were produced in Walden and Ellenville. Suppose that he even goes so far as to pull all existing products off the market. Would that be enough? If these came to be, would I be willing to set aside the Made in China thing that soured my taste towards his company? Can I set aside my disgust with TBLLC for the cheapening of this legendary brand the way that he has?

It's hard to be accepting of someone who appears to want to mass produce products that were for so long, hand-crafted. Now, I'm not naive enough to think that the high quantities of knives produced in Ellenville were all 100% hand-made, but the legacy, the heritage, the history is so deeply rooted in NY, in those factories, that I just can't bring myself to accept anything that might come from TBLLC branded as Schrade. The honor of those craftsmen and craftswomen in NY means more to me than that.

I'm not writing this as a rant, or to slam TBLLC, although I have to be honest and realize that I can't seem to find anything positive to say about TBLLC. I'm just airing my thoughts and questions to the group.

What would it take for you to intentionally purchase and use a TBLLC Schrade as your daily carry?
 
LOL

My feeling too!

I'm far from convinced that the mess made by SMBR could not have been avoided, and, that they and Taylor were not talking as it all unfolded.
 
It would take a lobotomy! :thumbdn: !
 
The only way he can really overcome the situation he is in, is to make such a superior product that know one could ever dispute that the original is better. And that is a very difficult thing to do considering the quality /dollar of price and even more important ---the lives and hearts of those who made them. We have lost that now in so many ways other than Schrade and it's too bad. I don't think he could do it for the older guys ( I guess I should speak for myself) but some of the younger folks or those who lack knowledge of what took place, will buy from him not having a clue as to what has happened. If he moved the whole kit and kaboodle to the US it will still be a different knife and a different company -- it might be a good knife but it will be different.
 
When you buy a USA Schrade, your not buying just a knife, your buying a tradition, American values, family keepsakes, pride and a part of
American history.
When you buy ChiCom, your buying.... I've been sitting here for a while and can't think of anything.
 
Chicoms........that is what the VCs used to thrown at GIs in Vietnam and Korea :eek: :eek: It is slang for Chinese communist grenade..........the only thing good about them is their poor quality and they didn't pack as much wallop as the US grenades did...........poor quality...........I guess somethings never change. :D

I am told that the USSR & Checzoslovakian AK-47's were far superior to the Chinese ones.

Thank God the quality of their grenades was as bad as the quality of their knives. I had a friend who had one go off in his hand & one on either side of him. He lost an eye & broke both legs, but lived to tell the story. That would not have happened with American made grenades!

Dale

Forum content: I don't see me buying ANY Taylor knives, unless he starts a company in the USA, comes up with original designs and makes a high quality product of his own. Then I MIGHT consider buying one. It seems he is making money on the misfortunes of others..........not something I would like to be known for. :grumpy:
 
Codger_64 said:
The company is still operating, though at greatly reduced capacity. They are still shipping knives, though not the quantity or variety as before the strike. Exactly what will transpire between now and the end of the year is anyone's guess.

You know, it is an odd quirk of the human condition to look for someone to blame when things go wrong. Afterall, someone must be guilty of sins of comission or omission. This is a fact of life that I have labored long and hard to teach my own children as they were growing up. The generation who "manned up" and took personal responsibility is fading fast.

I could very easily say that if Albert, Henry, Dwight, or Adolph Kastor were alive, none of this would have happened to the Baer cutlery empire that once was. Genuis innovators that they were, I still don't think they would have been able to adapt to the changing manufacturing and retailing environment of today.

You see, we tend to think these things are linier, but they are not. The changes are exponential. To explain this on a "101" level, the coming of age of new generations of buyers and the type products they want to buy, foriegn competition and their capacities and capabilities, changing manufacturing methods and materials do not come about 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, but rather 1, 2, 4, 8, 16, 32, 64, 128. Keeping up with the cutting edge of manufacturing and marketing today takes a special kind of savey. For a century of more, bigger was better. This is not the case today.

More employees, increasing production capacity, a bigger market share, more inventory on hand. It doesn't work this way any more. And manufacturers who try to compete on a global scale, and do not adjust their thinking, maintain their old ways of operating, fall by the wayside.

Once again making an obscure reference to explain a factor no one seems to remember; In spite of the rhetoric surrounding the "owners", the bank, the Union, the product, the community, there is a wizard behind the curtain pulling levers, and causing clouds of vapor to rise, and igniting flashes of gas, mesmerizing all who behold.

Codger
Click to expand...

I posted this earlier this month in the Camillus forum in reference to their current plight, but it applies equally well to the demise of Schrade. I repost it here because TedGamble was asking a sincere question, and deserves a more sincere and thought out answer than what I posted earlier.

Regardless of what most may think of SMKW, TBLLC, Pipes/Hall/Taylor et al, they were not the cause of Schrade's demise and neither was the chinese embassy of commerce, Wah-Maht. In fact, both SMKW and Wah-Maht were a boon to Schrade from the 1980's forward. Both ordered knives in large quantities every year, paying bonuses for special etches, special handle materials and shielding. SMKW provided Schrade with a market for their rejects and overruns as well. With an annual value in the hundreds of thousands of dollars in production costs alone, Schrade could no longer afford to send them to the chopper. This was only done when there were safety issues that presented a liability.

I have no problem with Taylor's purchase and use of the Schrade I.P. He bought it like a used car at a repo auction, and it is his to do with as he chooses. He chose, most likely for economic reasons, to have the Schrade copies he is selling made in China, admitedly the cheapest place to have most any item made. The ones I have examined have been, as I have stated time after time, of unaceptably poor quality. If he feels that these meet his own cutlery quality standards and is willing to sell them as representative of the quality one can expect from TBLLC, fine. I have no problem with that.

I do have a problem with importers who fail to clearly identify their products as imported and from where they originated. I do not buy the excuse that he didn't know his newly hired artist put the American flag on his boxes, or that the artist made the boxes near copies of those Schrade used to package their American made knives. I think that is called the "Nuremberg defense", though the connotation of that term is a bit overkill for this situation. Still, he was responsible for approving the very deceptive packaging that many sellers are taking advantage of, as well as deceptive blade etches like the recently seen "1904-2004 / 100th Anniversary" Chinese red bone knives. Couple these with carney sellers, and it is no wonder the dissapointment od buyers points back to the importer who designed the packaging and specified to the chinese manufacturer what to stamp and etch on the knives. Do you think that if a locking TBLLC knife fails and closes on the fingers of a buyer, the importer is not in a liability position?

Yes, I have problems with Chinese goods and go out of my way not to buy them. That is my perogative. The reasons are many, and I'll not delve into them again here. Quality is only one issue, and one which they will undoubtedly eventually overcome. And which will increasingly become less important as older consumers play a decreasing role in the marketplace. Likewise, the political memory of U.S. Chinese relations over the years will become less of a hinderence to their coopting the U.S. markets for their goods. My children have no memories of the fact that we have been at war with China since the end of the second World War, as we had been with the Soviet Union. Many young American boys and WWII vets died fighting them in Korea. Many young American boys and Korean vets died fighting them in S.E. Asia. The PC writers of public school history evidently never heard the shrill whistle of Chinese squad commands in the night on a lonely hilltop in a jungle. That is not something you forget, as surely as my father never forgot the scream of a diving kamakazi plane and refused til his death years later to buy Japanese goods. Neither have they been told of the transfer of U.S. P.O.W.s from both wars to camps in China, never to be returned.

The chinese have to this day openly declared their intent to dominate us both economically and militarily. I will not buy Chinese goods willingly and am very resentful when I am duped into doing so.

As for TBLLC becoming a U.S. Manufacturer (or was the guy just refering to an increased stateside SFO program)? I would welcome that, but still would not consider the product to be Schrades. I can watch a show at a casino, but am not fooled into thinking the impersonator is really Elvis. Or the Beatles.

As for my collection, it does not include imported copies. Those copies I own are sequestered in their own "Laogai" box, and are kept for reference and review, not for display.

Codger
 
After reading some of your replies, I got to thinking. That made me change my opinion slightly. I originally welcomed the thought of production of these "Schrades" being brought to the US, and I still think that is a good thing. They still won't be "Schrades", but they will be made here.

But then I thought, why is this being done? Does TBLLC care so much about America and the history of the Schrade name, that he would turn the tide and bring prod. back to the US? Or is it that he has gotten such a backlash from the Schrade-buying community, that the only way to make money off this name in the long run is to bring prod. back here?

Why are they only now doing this? Why wasn't this done originally. I think the Schrade-a-holics would have been much more accepting of and supportive of an effort that TBLLC tried to make work in the US. from the start.

I don't begrudge any man's desire to make some money. It's how they go about doing it that's important to me.

Glenn
 
And I have to wonder...will the chinese send all the dies and machinery to Tennessee, or will they just continue to make Schrade copies on their own. I happen to know that they are the bane of inventors worldwide by their blatent disregard for patents, trademarks and copyrights. Their deal to produce Jeeps under license for the asian markets did not work out so well for the U.S. company.

And I still want to know who this "well-known and reputable Chinese Manufacturer" is, and where they are located.

Codger
 
If Taylor decided to produce Schrades or another product here in the USA then I am in favor. Many well-known brands; Benchmade, Gen. Motors, Gerber, etc. have production plants both here and overseas. It is the duty of the manufacturer and marketer and the responsibility of the consumer to learn with lines of product are produced where. For collectors it would add to the confusion though. You would have orig. Schrades, Chinese Schrades, and "new" US Schrades. Caveat Emptor would rule the day. But I would still be in favor. There is one exception though.

If the "new" US Schrades were marked, packaged, or represented to intentionally mislead buyers then I would be incensed. That would not be bringing jobs and traditions back to the US. That would be fraud. A fine line I know, but we all draw ours somewhere.
 
The sign definitely shows humor and being fair and balanced :) .

I heard that when the Taylor Company was the top bidder this was a great shock to them. They knew that Gerber had much more money and had connections to Wal*Mart. So when the smaller company was the top bidder they had to run extremely fast to get the entire product line made with the hopes to stay in the major stores (before showcases etc... were thrown out or somebody else was to move in their place). I would think this would be a major undertaking to do. I also agree with you that the Taylor company approved the artwork which included the flag. I really don't think that they put the correct amount of thought into this decision. Once this company felt they made an incorrect oversight they had their artwork changed. We are all human and we all can make mistakes, it is a good quality when people or businesses correct errors.

As for the question on why had they decided to start manufacturing some product lines in the US? They probably feel that there is a market and they can make money. This is what a lot of businesses do if they see that they can branch out in different directions. The Taylor company has been an importer but it seems that they are looking to expand into manufacturing. I am glad for the people in Pennsylvania and TN. I hope that that the information concerning the new manufacturing is correct.


One thing for sure, if a product is not quality when it is made then it will never become quality. I myself feel, as for investment and collecting, if they design new high quality knives made in the US that are marked so that collectors will not get confused from original antique knives and the price is reasonable, I will probably invest.
 
I was thinking as I was reading this mornings posts to this thread (dangerous I know) :D .......but, if Taylor is so proud of his Chinese made products and if they are of such good quality, why doesn't he put the Communist Chinese flag on the package instead of the American flag??????

I think I need more caffeine,
Dale
 
I've given much thought to the Chinese production issue lately, and to the Taylor production thing too.

I'm getting to believe that the world is changing in a way that is natural and good in the long run, the world is being divided in specialized regions, some provide manufactured goods, some provide materials, some provide technology, some provide services, some provide capital, they all somehow work together and need each other, they all give and take from each other, those who participate will grow, those who stay out will be left behind and become poor countries. As in the old days some places grew into cities and those who lived in them could not do much farming, so is happening in the USA which is moving away from manufacturing but is needed by manufacturing countries, not only as a consumer but also as investor and provider of technology. There will still be manufacturing in the USA just as there is still plenty of farming and just as you can still keep some chicken and grow some carrots at home, but much will be done elsewhere, Globalization is here to stay.

On the other hand regarding Taylor brands, whether they manufacture in the USA or overseas, as far as I am concerned their knives may be good or bad but are not what I consider Schrades, just as if I buy the name Shakespeare I can publish new plays good or bad and signed Shakespeare, but not the real thing.

Luis

Now going back to check on our own local problems in Mexico, the political situation is getting tougher every day...
 
Don Luis, please email me. I have a question you might be able to help me with.

Codger
 
If Taylor made a superior product (equal to or better than the quality of the original Scrade knives) at a very reasonable price (average workman's hourly wage) I would buy one if I needed one - regardless of where they made the damn thing. I don't think they can...

Of course, I could live 50 lifetimes and I would not be able to use all the USA Schrade knives I've already bought (sitting in cigar boxes in my closet), so I won't be needing any knives from Taylor for the rest of my life!:p
 
Codger_64 said:
Click to expand...


OT - but I live about 45 minutes away from that sign :D

As for Schrades made in the US by Taylor, there are still enough real Schrades out there. They might cost a little more but they're worth it.
 
Well, I guess that I'll speculate right along with the rest of you. I don't think that Taylor will move production of the majority of the Schrade line to the U.S., why would he? Are ex-Schrade employees going to move en masse to the locale of the new factory? I don't think so. It will be a new and untrained workforce and it will take years to achieve the same economy of scale that Schrade had attained. In the interim, they will undoubtedly be turning out knives inferior to what Schrade was producing even at the end. Will the public pay a premium for a Schrade knife made in the U.S.? Will they pay more than what Schrade was charging before they went belly up?

If Taylor does end up making something here, it may be some special editions, but I doubt that even that will happen. It would be very difficult for a brand to have multiple identities; low-end mass produced knives made in China, and at the same time, high-end knives made the "old fashioned way" here in the U.S. They have cut their own throat with the reputation earned by the Chinese expedition. How would Taylor market the new knives, "Buy these new made in the USA knives, don't buy that shit I had made in China"?

It is possible that after looking at the very durable eBay sales of Schrade knives over the last two years, there may be a place for Schrade in the collectors market, modeled after what Case has been doing; making knives that appeal primarily to people who will buy them to collect, not use. Today's young generation can't and don't carry pocket knives like most of us did, and our fathers and grandfathers before us. Our culture has changed; changes in work-rules, airline restrictions, etc., have made the everyday carrying of a pocket knife less common. For those who do carry a knife, the popularity of low price of SAK's and the advent of utilitarian multi-tools have also impacted sales of the good old pocket knife.

What does Taylor actually manufacture now? Nothing, everything is made by others, mostly off-shore. This is a highly competitive business and Taylor is likely to make far more profit doing just what he's currently doing with Schrade now.

Taylor has a few other brands in their stable and has been offering knives of one sort or another for about 30 years now. What has Taylor ever produced that was one of those "gotta have" knives? Anybody? Even Jim Parker sold some knives that had some merit and were decent for the money.

Hope is not lost, there is a company making knives right now that are as good as, or better than the knives that Schrade made, it's called Canal Street Cutlery.
 
Hope is not lost, there is a company making knives right now that are as good as, or better than the knives that Schrade made, it's called Canal Street Cutlery.
Click to expand...
Absolutely!
 
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