So, why don't you re-bevel your knives?

V

Vivi

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In the EDC - What's In Your Pocket(s) thread I raised a question I had based on viewing everyone's EDC rotations.

There were very few knives posted that appaeared to have been sharpened, and even fewer that had been rebeveled.

Why?

If you've used your knife at the factory angle and had durability issues, or took the angle down and had a similar experience so reverted back to the factory angle, then I have nothing to say to you. You've found what works for you and your knife uses and I have no reason to try and tell you to do otherwise.

But I have the impression that there are some, or even many people here that have never tried changing a knife to a more acute angle.

Why not?

Yeah, a factory Spyderco, Kershaw or Victorinox will cut well. Very well in fact. But if you take your shiny new ZDP mini cyclone from a 40 degree inclusive edge (Not sure if that's completely accurate) to a 16-20 degree inclusive edge, it will cut so much better in binding materials and be easier to sharpen if you use microbevels.

For me, the ideal edge for a large folding knife is to shape the edge bevel at around 6-10 degrees per side depending on the blade's grind and thickness, convexing the shoulders of the bevel where it transitions into the primary grind of the blade, then apply a more obtuse microbevel at roughly 15 degrees per side primarily to speed up sharpening touch-ups.

So, for those of you that haven't ever done something like this, why not? If it's an issue of time and effort, just talk to Mr. Tom Krein. If you're worried about messing up a knife trying yourself and are too cheap for Mr. Krein like I am, just go to Walmart or Target and buy a SAK for 10$ and use a coarse stone. SAKs reprofile in no time at all. If you don't have a coarse stone you can even use a cinder block, a piece of sidewalk, a rock, sandpaper etc. Really, all it takes to try this out is about 10$ and 15 minutes. So why not give it a shot? Even if you EDC a high RC knife like a ZDP Mini Cyclone and it takes you 3 hours to rebevel the knife for some reason, think of how often you use a knife everyday that you EDC for year(s) and you'll see the time investment is nothing at all.
 
usually the factory bevels work fine, for me anyway, i have changed a couple but generally prefer the factory.
 
I too prefer the twenty degree (inclusive) edge. The only difference with my experiences is that I have to go to the belt sander to get it done efficiently, By hand it's usually an afternoon job, with polishing in the evening.
The benefit still outweighs the cost, though I would recommend proper sharpening equipment. If you don't have stones that are aggressive enough it can take forever.
 
I have a question about sharpening a factory bevel. How do you do it without being hassle? Factory edges don't have micro bevels, correct? So to sharpen it, wouldn't you need to discover what the true angle is by trial and error with a sharpie marker? Would sharpening a factory bevel remove more material than sharpening a micro and wouldn't it be more difficult? I am learning here myself and am seeking people's opinions on this matter as well as plenty of other matters =)
 
Spyderco and Cold Steel tend to be EXTREMELY sharp right out of the box -- and serrations are a pain to touch up -- so I just use 'em till they're worn out, then do what I can to touch up the serrations and relegate it to "trunk knife" or "giveaway" status. They're cheap enough that I can do that.

I've sharpened a few old Taylor balisongs with a friend's Warthog sharpening system, and used it to sharpen a CRKT Hissatsu that was dull as a butterknife NIB. Only needed to have one blade reground -- an Ontario dagger that was dull and absolutely refused to take an edge. A knifemaker took a belt sander to it.

Me, I are quite ignorant when it comes to sharpening. Until I discovered the Warthog I thought the Sharpmaker was great. And I've used a diamond rod for serrations. With my left hand I can't make a sharpening stone work for some reason, and those Lanskey systems look complicated.
 
Tyr, I've known how the sharpen a knife for less than a few years. If I can come here with absolutely no idea that sharpening even involves a specific technique to becoming such an elitist bastard that I won't even use a knife with an edge greater than 30 degrees inclusive unless I absolutely have to, and feel bad about using knives that won't pop hair off my arm, I think you can learn how to rebevel a knife. :)

Really all it comes down to is trying. I can't stress that enough. I never had a clue about even the most basic principles of sharpening and when I read here about specific angles and stropping and stuff I felt overwhelmed. But as soon as I stopped reading and starting trying, I could compare what I did to what people talked about and generally find what I was doing wrong and eventually what others were doing wrong.

Some of the things I've read on knife forums make me want to shake my head. For instance I recently made a post or two on "the other forum," and one of the things I saw was someone talking about how they haven't sharpened their Kershaw knife in years. Years. That's insane. That's insane for anyone, much less someone on a knife forum. Sigh. I need to quit ranting. :)
 
Artilary6 said:
I have a question about sharpening a factory bevel. How do you do it without being hassle? Factory edges don't have micro bevels, correct? So to sharpen it, wouldn't you need to discover what the true angle is by trial and error with a sharpie marker? Would sharpening a factory bevel remove more material than sharpening a micro and wouldn't it be more difficult? I am learning here myself and am seeking people's opinions on this matter as well as plenty of other matters =)
Click to expand...

For more in-depth answers there is a great subforum for this kind of discussion.

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=794

What you ask is correct though. Many factory knives can have different bevels even on the same model knife or have uneven bevels. I know the majority of my factory knives have a more acute edge on the right side of the knife (Looking at the blade with the spine facing you) than the left for some reason. With sharpening systems you can generally set it to a specific angle easily, but the knife doesn't always match up. If you try to sharpen a knife with the sharpmaker at the 40 degrees setting and you only hit the shoulder of the bevel, it's going to take hours to rebevel the knife to match the angle setting you're using. I really don't understand why people even use this method to rebevel a knife like I've seen posts about, when using a very course stone free hand is worlds quicker. If you can easily match up the angle with a jig though it can be very quick and effective, though I personally free-hand everything.

With a microbevel you still have to be precise to get a good edge. The advantadge to me is that when you sharpen the knife at the angle you want, assuming you're sharpening free hand, you learnw here to position the knife pretty quick based on the angle you sharpen. When I sharpen my Manix for example I don't think, "Alright, let's get a nice, clean 20 degree inclusive edge on this folder," I just lay it where it feels natural for me to hold it to the stone, at an angle I know cuts well, and go from there. That's a lot easier to me than trying to match up with the factory edge. YMMV.
 
I have found with a few knives that i have "rebeveled" that there is some good and some bad that comes from it. I rebevel my around the house users so they have a much thiner edge, this keeps them proper razor sharp but i find i need to strop or touch them up a bit more often to keep them up there.
I have found with my harder use knives its best to just keep near the factory edge angles because they seem to have it about right for a wider range of chores.
The knives i take in to the wood for work generally have factory angles or near to it as i do allot of chopping and poking around at things, but it probably wouldnt make much difference if the angles were changed a bit either way.
The knives i use for training and playing in general are all at factory edge angles or again near to it and kept good and sharp. i regularly do test cutting with all types of stuff at full speed so i feel a thiner edge could get damaged on zips, bones and logs etc some times i still chip edges or lose a bit off the tip but its easy fixed with a bit of elbow greese.
I find as stated already the bevels are not always even on both sides when a knife is new out the box so i do "clean" them up a bit when this is the case but i dont think it makes a drastic change to the original angles when this is done.
Thats why i do and dont rebevel my blades, to answer you question :D
 
I re-bevel and/or sharpen every knife, they are never up to my standards.
OK, OK, the fancy Mcusta special with San mai blade and custom handle hasn't been done--because not only do I not expect to use it (I bought it 'cause it was so beautiful) but because it was the sharpest knife I've ever had 'out of the box'.
Greg
 
I find that blades with a less than 15 degree angle tend to deform much easier than those with a 40 degree angle.
About a 30 degree angle seems to be around the perfect compromise between cutting performance and edge strength.
 
I always use the original edge...and if it works, I don't fix it. When I sharpen I try to retain the factory or custom knife maker's edge, particularly for single bladed knives. The type of edge should be part of a knife's design. If you buy a well designed knife, especially a custom, the edge should be optimum for the steel, heat treatment and intended use.

Now if the original edge doesn't work, like every queen and schatt&morgan I've ever owned, I reprofile immediately and work on it for about a month to I get the edge(s) I desire. For example, on a two blade slipjoint, I like one coarse edge and one mirror polished.
 
I have rebeveled all of my knives. If you get a DMT D8XX your time spent rebevelling will be much less, unless you have a belt sander. It only took a couple minutes with heavy pressure to go from 15 per side to 10 per side on my ZDP 189 Endura, so if it is the time that stops you from going more acute I would recommend that stone. As Vivi said, at the more acute angles your cutting ability and ease of sharpening go way up.

I agree with brownshoe that the proper angle should be on the knife from the factory and matched to the steel and intended uses, but I haven't seen many knives come close to being acute enough, IMO. Only Spyderco has come close (most would consider them acute enough, but I like them really acute) in my experience, as I have had several in the 12-13 per side range from the factory. However, as was mentioned before, the angle will vary from knife to knife, even on the same model, as the knives are all hand sharpened from what I have seen.

Mike
 
Let’s see if we can find the right forum …
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I'll re-post some of what I said in the EDC thread - since it is more relevant here -

Sharpening is a much, much debated (and emotive) topic -
although I cannot disagree the single edge bevel angle is important -
in this case the more acute the better (within reason of course).

For the "average Joe" 45deg total inclusive is a good general edge bevel - and this is the point - on an EDC - which generally is for general purpose - this angle is actually pretty good - I mean, really, how many people actually shave with their EDC - as a real preference over their razors?

Again, yes, cutting through cardboard a more actute bevel will show advantages -
but I do not think it's the actual final cutting edge that's the main contributor -
I think it's the narrower/thinner profile behind the edge that's doing it.

Personally I think a single edge bevel is not really optimal.
This forces the bevel behind actual cutting edge to follow that angle.

Many, many sharpening instructions and books including the "Razor Edge Book of Sharpening" by John Juranitch - (which has been a sort of "bible" of sharpening for many years) - recommend a secondary or "transition" bevel - that is a bevel between the blade face and the actual final cutting edge, that is thin/acute - then the final edge bevel can be put on that's more suitable for the steel in use.

See also this very useful site -
How to Sharpen a Knife by Dee Griffin, DVM University of Nebraska, Great Plains Veterinary Educational Center
(This is so good I saved a copy several times :o, just in case the page ever disappears.)

On knives I use I try to put a sort of semi convexed edge - but the final cutting micro edge bevel is still the old trusted 45deg inclusive (ie: I lightly finish on some crock sticks set at that angle before stropping) - they seem to work fine for my EDC -
Convexed Edge

--
Vincent
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I have been trying to taking most everything down to the next angle. My present EDCs are a Leatherman Juice S2 and a Kershaw Vapor.

The Juice blade has a rather thick spine for a narrow blade. I left this one at the factory angle due to the trouble with the GATCO sharpening narrow blades.

The Kershaw website notes that the Vapor "is flat ground to Kershaw's famous, "shaving sharp" edge." I found this to be less than accurate out of the box. Since it needed a bit of help I took the opportunity to take the angle down a bit. It is sporting a nicely reprofiled, shaving, edge at the moment.


Artilary6 said:
I have a question about sharpening a factory bevel. How do you do it without being hassle? Factory edges don't have micro bevels, correct? So to sharpen it, wouldn't you need to discover what the true angle is by trial and error with a sharpie marker? Would sharpening a factory bevel remove more material than sharpening a micro and wouldn't it be more difficult? I am learning here myself and am seeking people's opinions on this matter as well as plenty of other matters =)
Click to expand...

I have a GATCO. Using a sharpie it is pretty easy to find the factory angle. I have 6 angles available. I can always find one that is right on or close enough that will not require removing too much steel to match the factory or as sharpened angle.

I do not know why, if you are matching the angle, sharpening a factory bevel would remove more material than a micro bevel. By micro bevel do you mean a knife has a main bevel and then a slightly greater bevel at the edge?

When I sharpen I try to remove as little material as possible. I want the two bevels on opposit sides of the blade to meet at the edge.

If I am matching an existing edge, be it factory or otherwise, I simply try to clean up the bevel that already exists, give it a nice polish, and remove as little material as possible while still allowing the two bevels to meet in a crisp edge.

If I am going from say a 30° to a 20° I remove metal from the shoulder of the bevel on each side until the two sides meet at the edge that already exists. I have never gone the other way, from say a 20° to a 30°, but that would require you to remove metal from the edge.
 
Most knives I purchase don't need it. Some I re-bevel, some I don't. Most of them I just realign to get the bevels even. I do not scratch the crap out of my blades while sharpening or working on them. If they get worn during use so be it, but I will not intentionally tear one up during sharpening or beveling. It really is not necessary. But if it does not bother people to do so then more power to them.
 
I would hate the tear up a blade trying to rebevel as well. I am trying to understand the best way to go about sharpening knives. If micro bevels were the way to go, my first thought is that companies, at least high end ones, would add them to knife designs. But i've never seen a new knife come with a micro on it. So, what is better? Maybe most people use micros because its a hassle to match an angle without proper equipment? An edge pro would do it, but how could it be done with a sharpmaker? Maybe use shims? Hmm....I've seen someone here mention shims before...think it was Esav.
 
I always reprofile.

It was a pain until I picked up an EdgePro.

I usually go down to 20-21 degrees or so.

-j
 
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