Soft Back/Hard Edge.....it old or new?

Kodiak PA

Kodiak PA

Gold Member
Joined
Dec 3, 1998
Messages
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I read with interest in this month's issue of Blade magazine in the Point to Point section that discussed the origin of selectively hardened kife blades. Roger Green stated that this concept was new and started with Bill Moran whereas Ed Fowler says the concept was around long before the 20th century. I wanted to get the opinions of some of the talented and knowledgable knifemakers here on BFC and see what their opinion was.

Is differentially hardened knives a new concept or old?

TIA.

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~Greg Mete~
Kodiak Alaska

 
i think some of the japanese sword makers from the 1400s and on might have an argument with that statement, maybe some guys from turkey and china too, but the japanese for sure.

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http://www.mayoknives.com


 
Thanks for the comment Tom.

Are you referring to Roger's or Ed's statement, though? I'm assuming you're saying that differentially treated knives have been around a while. Am I off base here?


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~Greg Mete~
Kodiak Alaska

 
If this is new than the date on my PC is off by 800 yrs or so.
Japanese swords get there curve from the edge hardening and the back staying soft.
I think Roger is going to get some mail over this one.


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Edward Randall Schott
Knifemaker
edschott@rcn.com

http://www.angelfire.com/ct/schottknives/
 
I've got to agree with Ed Fowler. I have read historical accounts of the days when the general blacksmith was one of the most important people in a community. The only heat source they used was there forge, and all operations had to be accomplished there. Alex Bealer refers to differential harding in his book, (which is one of the first smithing books I ever saw) in the manner of hardening a tool, then using a large heated block of iron to "draw the temper" by placing the spine on the block, and watching the colors run until the edge was a golden straw. The Japanese certainly did it through the use of their clay/slurry heat treatment. And even the Norsemen (possibly without knowing it) through the construction of swords with hard edges welded to non-hardenable, multi-twisted cores. This last really had my couriousity peaked. Some of the printed material I had read talked of how the swords "moaned" and "howled" during combat. After studying the Sutton Hoo sword, I came to the conclusion that the Norse would make twisted cores for these swords, and only slightly weld the core together, intentionally leaving unwelded sections, and then welded an edge section to this. If you can imagine several rods, twisted together(without being welded), place one end in a vise, and then grasp the other end and flex it side to side. The rods will "slide" around each other as they are flexed, creating a much more durable structure than a solid core. So.....I don't think that there is anything new to differential hardening, it's simply a matter of applying modern methods to achieve the same result.
http://www.mtn-webtech.com/~caffrey

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Ed Caffrey
"The Montana Bladesmith"




[This message has been edited by Ed Caffrey (edited 01-22-2000).]
 
Don't guess I would agree with this century for diferential hardening since there is a blade made in sweeden in the 1870s that has that type hardening (family owned, handed down from great-great uncle). Roger may have been refering to the modern use of the method which Moran had a big hand in, like a lot of other things to do with the modern forged blade.

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old pete
 
I've seen woodworking tools,drawknives axes etc from colonial days which had a steel edge welded onto an iron back. Steel was expensive and hard to obtain so they used it where it counted ,the edge.They obviously knew the advantages and used the best method avalible. Its not too far a reach to believe that knifemakers or blacksmiths would have tried to acheive similar results.
 
I think Pete may be right. I was very confused with the article too. Moran got the idea from the way they heat treated some tools. I don't think he meant he invented the method but I'm not sure what his point was. Like one post said, He's going to get some mail on this one. I thought I was the only one confused.

John Yeackley

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http://www.toptexknives.com/yeackley.htm My contribution to the world of knife fanatics.


 
If you take a look at some Jim Hrisoulas' books they explain quite a bit of this. The historical aspect of this has always been very intriquing to me.....an armchair historian.

C Wilkins
 
Differential heat treating is probably as old as steel weapon itself.

I am not familiar with western arms history. But in Chinese history, iron become materials for swords and Spears in the Han Dynasty, which is about the 1st Century, closely after the Bronze Weapons (or actually existed together).

Iron or steel weapon needs attention and won't preserve well. The only culture I know that have very old steel sword is Japan.

I've seen in exhibitions in Japan that a sword with notable hammon (hard edge) was dated 7th Century ( Asuka Period ) in Japan....Tung Dynasty in China. That sword has some chinese words on it and it is the style of calligraphy popular through out China in the 3rd Century.

So ...propably as old as iron...or steel itself!!

Joe Leung

[This message has been edited by JoeL (edited 01-23-2000).]
 
I believe selective heat treatment has been around for a long time in many cultures due to the necessity of it to make better knives/swords, even more so with the poor steels availabile then.
For instance, a blacksmith who makes traditional styled knives here in Tatuí, has been using it for more than 50 years now and he can´t remeber to have learne dit as something special - to him, it was just the way knives should be made.
Agreeing with Ed Caffrey´s post I can tell that this same smith has had no difficulties in making Damascus steel to me as he had learned to weld steels for tools prior to the availability of electric soldering over here, though, as everything he makes is very performance-oriented, he just can not understand what Damascus is good for...
Best regards.

Ivan Campos
 
Agree!! Forge welding is a must for ancient smiths. Forge-folding is necessary to improve the steel source in ancient time....drives out impurities, mixing or welding higher carbon steel to lower carbon steel....

Most probably they have to learn to forge-welding, different ways of heat-treatings before they can actually make anything. And the primtive flux they use may just be straw-ashes, silica or such. In contrast to the borax we use. So I would like to think that they'll absolutely have no difficulties in making what we called damascus...
smile.gif
but of course, Wootz is another story.

Joe Leung

[This message has been edited by JoeL (edited 01-23-2000).]
 
I spoke with Roger Green in person a couple of weeks ago and ask him about this article in question. I had scanned the Blade article....did not read it in detail.

Roger told me that the main point he was making is about Western Bowies, particularly those manufactured in Sheffied.. He states that he has examined a lot of old bowies and has never run across one that was differentially heat treated. He also said he would gladly take back his statement if someone came up with a knife to prove him wrong.

I do not believe that anyone would claim that no western smith ever made a bowie knife that was differentially heat treated. It just was not a common proctice by a long shot.
 
Regarding flux material, Joe, what the smith I mentioned used is white sand, as long as a industrial flux called Trincal, wich seems to have been around for a long while. he says both work the same.

Ivan Campos
 
I agree that the article was confusing. It is clear AFTER reading the article that the authors are talking about bowies in the USA but the title is very misleading.

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"Come What May..."
 
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