software? hardware? me v.s. Apple

[annr]

Is this hardware or software? Does running the computer with all 4GB in use prove that the hardware is sound?

Is this a lemon? Should they be offering me a new computer?

How much am I expected to do to get a new computer to work?

Any recommendations on how to sort this out? I don't know whom to believe.
------------------------------------------------------------
About two and a half weeks after purchasing an iMac I brought it back to the Apple Store because I had been having problems: the computer stopped working : ‘hard drive with insufficient memory’;it can’t locate some files with the exact file name; the thumbnails can be pixilated; iPhoto and Finder were non-responsive…..etc.

Their tech verified that the computer could not locate certain files but did not know exactly what was wrong with the computer. They kept it three days. When I picked it up they said that they had run the computer using all 4 GB of memory and the computer did not crash or recreate the error message I got. Therefore, there was nothing wrong with the hardware and nothing more that they could do for me; I had a software problem and needed to reinstall the software.

The tech at AppleCare walked me through an Archive and Reinstall, etc. The computer was no different. The next time I called Apple, the tech had me back up all of my data on an external hard drive and perform what I think he called an ‘erase and install’. The computer would not boot up. The next tech had me shut and restart the computer with the start button. Pinwheel still turning.

The next tech said that I needed to zero out the entire computer because he thought I had directory structure damage and needed to start from scratch re-installing the operating system. When I asked him if my computer was just a lemon he said that there was some inherent problem I was experiencing with the computer but that it was more like a rash than some other more serious ailment.

So far I have spent 20 hours attempting to re-install the software and now I'm trying to recover from the phone conversations (There were others!!) and figure out what to do next.

 

[YayILikePie]

I'd install OpenSUSE and see how that works. If that works, then it's gotta be a weird software issue going on with Apple itself.

 

[Chiller2]

WHAT!! That is unpossible havn't you seen the commercials and listened to the fanboys Macs always work never crash never get viruses and run forever on unicorn farts and pixie dust.

 

[annr]

WHAT!! That is unpossible havn't you seen the commercials and listened to the fanboys Macs always work never crash never get viruses and run forever on unicorn farts and pixie dust.

I bought it because I'm doing a lot of graphic design and I was told over and over by graphic designers that this was the best one to get. Ouch.

I'm not drinking the kool-aid or feeling the vibe.

 

[tedwca]

Does it boot to the install disc? Are you using the disc that came with the computer or a retail version of the OS? If you can boot to the install disc by holding the "C" key move your cursor to the top of the screen after the SELECT YOUR LANGUAGE screen and select Utilities. From that drop down select Disk Utility. Select you hard drive on the left hand column and the click "Repair DISK" Record any errors it may come up with. If it has any and repairs them, run it again until no errors are found.

*** Only if it cannot repair the disk, you will need to click on the Partition tab and repartition the HD - Use Apple Extended(Journaled) as the format. Make sure that it is set to GUID partition table in the Options menu.***

If nothing is found, restart the computer and hold the "D" key. This will boot to the Apple Hardware Test. Run the short version -takes 5-10 mins - note any errors. If it doesn't report any errors run the extended test - takes about 60-90 mins. Record any errors

If it still reports no errors, go ahead with the erase and install.

If your model has RAM that is user installable, try removing one of the chips and booting, then swap and see if that makes a difference.

Make sure you are keeping track of your case numbers when you call and make sure to use the same number when calling back, so they can track all the stuff you've done.

Good luck. PM me if none of this works or you are unclear of how to proceed.

 

[ironmike86]

If you just bought it. They should fix it even if it was a software problem If it was past the warranty they still should fix it for a fee instead of just leave you hanging??

 

[enderwiggin]

The software shouldn't be that hard to install. It sounds like you got a lemon, and they should be replacing it for you.

There should be a Hardware Test CD included with it that you can boot from.

Hold down C while you start up, and it'll tell you what the problems are.

Since it's new, however, I'd take it to an Apple store, or call 1-800-SOS-APPL and tell them you want to send it in. It sounds like you just got a jerk who didn't know what he was talking about on the phone.

WHAT!! That is unpossible havn't you seen the commercials and listened to the fanboys Macs always work never crash never get viruses and run forever on unicorn farts and pixie dust.

You're trolling, but at least you're partially right. The reason people buy Apple isn't so their computers will never break. It's because Apple fixes them when something goes wrong. It's unfortunate that the OP got an idiot on the phone who didn't just offer to send him a box to have the computer replaced or repaired, but that kind of crappy service is NOT the norm.

 

[Sid Post]

I bought it because I'm doing a lot of graphic design and I was told over and over by graphic designers that this was the best one to get. Ouch.

I'm not drinking the kool-aid or feeling the vibe.

Without a doubt, Mac's have the edge in Graphic Arts.

I had a somewhat related issue with a Windows based PC. The hard drive was bad enough to cause the issues you noted but, it was not bad enough to crash and destroy the hard drive. It took two months to fix this issue but, the day the tech replaced the hard drive was the last time I had the problem.

If you bought a new computer (which you appear to have done), Apple Care should be taking care you.

One last issue, did the Apple Store install new memory and then reinstall your old memory? You may have a bad bank of memory.

 

[annr]

If you just bought it. They should fix it even if it was a software problem If it was past the warranty they still should fix it for a fee instead of just leave you hanging??

This makes good sense to me but evidently not to them.

Their business model reminds me of the phone company: is the problem inside or outside the house? If it is hardware they will fix it. If it is software they will help you fix it on the phone, each for different lengths of time and depending on your service plan. The hardware and software guys don't work as a team, unless they happen to read and understand the others' notes which I haven't seen so far.

The other hurdle I have is that Apple says that they do not warranty the software in any way shape or form. They sell the software 'as is'. It does not even have to work ever is the way I read the terms and conditions.

However, they grant that their terms may not apply in some States. I looked at the AG's website and MA does not allow 'as is' sales by businesses. Products need to do what they are supposed to do for a reasonable length of time....serviceability and suitability, but I'm not a lawyer.

I stopped payment on the CC and will call the AG on Monday to see if I have a leg to stand on. I’m trying to decide if I should vigorously pursue a refund/exchange or a repair.

 

[annr]

Without a doubt, Mac's have the edge in Graphic Arts.

I had a somewhat related issue with a Windows based PC. The hard drive was bad enough to cause the issues you noted but, it was not bad enough to crash and destroy the hard drive. It took two months to fix this issue but, the day the tech replaced the hard drive was the last time I had the problem.

If you bought a new computer (which you appear to have done), Apple Care should be taking care you.

One last issue, did the Apple Store install new memory and then reinstall your old memory? You may have a bad bank of memory.

Thanks Sid. One reason I have no perspective on this is that my other iMac never skipped a heartbeat. Never call tech support once or needed a repair.

My hunch is that they never opened the box when I took it into the Store and that their test of blindly running the computer at full tilt is not diagnostically definitive but good enough to get me out of their hair.

Apple Care has put me through seven peoples’ help. I am on my fourth installation, including the installation of Snow Leopard when I got home. One of the techs said I should call back saying that I had gotten a 'bad egg' if his fix didn't work and I should get a new computer; he said he even thought that before he told me to try fixing it again.

When I called back because the computer would not boot up the new guy said that he did not have the authority to authorize a new computer. He put me on with another person who was non-responsive to the idea of a new computer. He was the one who said I have 'directory structure damage'. Again, I don’t know if he is right or not and if my computer were to ‘seem’ better for a while if it will really BE better. My impression has become that AppleCare is operating with the policy of NEVER replace a computer.

This is a brand new iMac desktop in the $1800 range. All of the RAM etc. came with the computer. Snow Leopard, advertised as factory installed, I installed.

Since I have gotten seven opinions and more than seven different remedies and tests I’m thinking that they don’t know what is wrong or that they don’t have the ability to explain (or for me to understand-though I don’t think I’m a dimwit) how to fix it over the phone. Either way I’ve lost confidence in the computer. If it doesn’t hold up after two weeks of use, and it is this rough to fix, what will it do when I get CS4 installed and why would I want to go through this over and over? I know my blood pressure won't take it.

 

[annr]

The software shouldn't be that hard to install. It sounds like you got a lemon, and they should be replacing it for you.

There should be a Hardware Test CD included with it that you can boot from.

Hold down C while you start up, and it'll tell you what the problems are.

Since it's new, however, I'd take it to an Apple store, or call 1-800-SOS-APPL and tell them you want to send it in. It sounds like you just got a jerk who didn't know what he was talking about on the phone.

You're trolling, but at least you're partially right. The reason people buy Apple isn't so their computers will never break. It's because Apple fixes them when something goes wrong. It's unfortunate that the OP got an idiot on the phone who didn't just offer to send him a box to have the computer replaced or repaired, but that kind of crappy service is NOT the norm.

You aren’t the only one to say that it sounds like a lemon but Apple won’t capitulate.
The computer came with three disks: one that is in the computer in the midst of my third re-installation. (I stopped because I decided that I may not want to keep this computer.); one is an applications disk, and the third is Snow Leopard.

I tried a test holding down the C and the other that Ted mentioned with the D.
With one exception I found the skill sets of the staff at Apple Care to range from the barely unqualified to the marginally qualified, this surprised me. Only the last person seemed good, but I think that he has no hard proof that he is right, just running another empirical test, so I don’t get full confidence in his voice. Perhaps if I had reached him first I wouldn’t have gotten to the point of wanting to ditch the computer.

I’ve got screen shots of all my issues. I wrote my business contact at the Apple Store giving the history of my efforts and I stressed that I didn’t think that I was given a proper, new computer and that I didn't think that Apple should expect the customer to shoulder the burden of sorting out 'inherent problems' in a new computer. I also said that I think that I should at least have the option, at my discretion not theirs, of a new computer. I heard that someone will get back to me. I’m still waiting, and now to talk to the AG’s office on Monday.

I just don’t know if I’m off base with my thinking on this since I don’t have a lot of experience with new computers and computer problems.

 

[annr]

Does it boot to the install disc? Are you using the disc that came with the computer or a retail version of the OS? If you can boot to the install disc by holding the "C" key move your cursor to the top of the screen after the SELECT YOUR LANGUAGE screen and select Utilities. From that drop down select Disk Utility. Select you hard drive on the left hand column and the click "Repair DISK" Record any errors it may come up with. If it has any and repairs them, run it again until no errors are found.

*** Only if it cannot repair the disk, you will need to click on the Partition tab and repartition the HD - Use Apple Extended(Journaled) as the format. Make sure that it is set to GUID partition table in the Options menu.***

If nothing is found, restart the computer and hold the "D" key. This will boot to the Apple Hardware Test. Run the short version -takes 5-10 mins - note any errors. If it doesn't report any errors run the extended test - takes about 60-90 mins. Record any errors

If it still reports no errors, go ahead with the erase and install.

If your model has RAM that is user installable, try removing one of the chips and booting, then swap and see if that makes a difference.

Make sure you are keeping track of your case numbers when you call and make sure to use the same number when calling back, so they can track all the stuff you've done.

Good luck. PM me if none of this works or you are unclear of how to proceed.

Thanks Ted,

I think that I understand everything that you wrote and will keep it on file, if not I’ll take you up on your generous offer. You explained it very clearly. BTW I've only used disks that came with the computer and done the C and D test; I don't think that any problems were identified. I haven't finished this last 'erase and install' out of sheer frustration and the bad feeling I've developed about the product after so many failures. I found I needed to ask a question and couldn't bring myself to call AppleCare again after our track record. It is very possible that this is a minor problem and that phone communication was inadequate, but I'm left doubting.

If you read my previous posts, sadly, I found that keeping track of case numbers did not help me. I had to start from scratch several times and go down several dead ends. I have used the same phone number from the get-go. During one phone call that had lasted 2.5 hours the phone went dead and the person never called me back.

All the RAM is factory installed and the computer is brand spankin’ new so I just wonder if it is reasonable to expect to have to erase and install this early on. The one tech who seemed a cut above the rest said that my problem was very rare and as I mentioned an’ inherent one of the computer’. This is fuzzy talk to me. If he’s saying that my computer is pre-disposed to being unstable I don’t want to keep it. I asked him about the nature of the problem: congenital or something that resolves or only recurs rarely. I found him very guarded, the kind of feeling you get when I doctor tries to be reassuring but hasn’t figured out what is wrong yet.

IME if something doesn’t work well out of the box it generally is pre-disposed to have ongoing problems. I’ll be using this computer -6-8 hours/day with really large image files and I don’t have trust that this thing deserves a clean bill of health.

 

[Ken C.]

Return it and buy a PC!!!

 

[annr]

Return it and buy a PC!!!

Apple doesn't see it that way!

I couldn't believe that AFTER I explained the problems I was having one of them said, "congratulations, you bought one of the best computers out there". Hello! which part of it's not working didn't he get??

 

[Cougar Allen]

It won't hurt to mention you're posting about it on the net as well as talking to the Attorney General. That doesn't have to be an explicit threat; it can be something like, "I belong to an internet forum with 140,000 members and they can't figure out how to fix it either -- they're all telling me Apple should replace the computer with one that works."

 

[BA_Colt]

These issues you are having really sucks. My only experience with a Mac computer going bad was resolved free of charge even though my Mac was 2 years old. Just keep on the Apple people as frustrating as it is. I hate to say it but sometimes things just go bad. I have owned both Macs (2) and PC's (3). My last PC new out of the box was a Dell and I had nothing but trouble with both the hardware and software. It took six months for Dell to finally capitulate and send me a refurbished Dell to replace the new one I purchased. The refurbished one that acted up three months later and never worked correctly. When CS3 came out I ditched the Dell and bought a MacBook Pro and CS3. Unless I change profession and become an accountant or become a gamer, I will keep buying Macs.

Good luck. I hope Apple fixes this problem.

 

[tedwca]

You will want to finish the erase and install, because that is the first thing they will ask you. If the issue remains call back and ask for a product specialist(tier 2). Due to the number of calls you've made they should escalate immediately, but if not ask for higher level support. You will have to explain the issue again(Yes, they have notes, but sometimes someone will not ask an obvious question or log the answer if they did) If it is still acting up after an erase and install it's not software related, it'll be hardware. They will either send you a box or you can take it to a repair center. It sounds like a software issue, but if it remains after an erase and install(don't restore from back up) then it's either the hard drive, logic board, or RAM. It does sound like a very unusual issue. BTW, the product specialist should give you their contact info so you don't have to jump through hoops to reach them again. Feel free to email me at tedwca@mac.com with the screenshots and I'll see if I have any more suggestions for you.

Good luck.

 

[annr]

You will want to finish the erase and install, because that is the first thing they will ask you. If the issue remains call back and ask for a product specialist(tier 2). Due to the number of calls you've made they should escalate immediately, but if not ask for higher level support. You will have to explain the issue again(Yes, they have notes, but sometimes someone will not ask an obvious question or log the answer if they did) If it is still acting up after an erase and install it's not software related, it'll be hardware. They will either send you a box or you can take it to a repair center. It sounds like a software issue, but if it remains after an erase and install(don't restore from back up) then it's either the hard drive, logic board, or RAM. It does sound like a very unusual issue. BTW, the product specialist should give you their contact info so you don't have to jump through hoops to reach them again. Feel free to email me at tedwca@mac.com with the screenshots and I'll see if I have any more suggestions for you.
Good luck.

Just a few questions:
What would you recommend I use to do the restoration? I was also concerned about doing it from back-up but didn’t know what the tech would have said.

So you think that having to do an erase and install in week 3 is not a bad omen?

Would you push for a new computer or go through all of the repairs under these circumstances?

If the erase and install seems to work, how much time would one need to allow in order to assume that the fix worked, unless I repeat the exact series of steps that produced the problem?

What points you in the direction of software?
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------


If one looks at the Apple support online there are only 2 entries for “directory structure damage’ and I didn’t think either fit; and It occurs to me that software and hardware problems aren’t mutually exclusive.

The last person who assisted me was probably one of the higher level people and because he seemed much brighter and capable his circumspection made me more nervous. He gave me a call-back number. I basically liked the guy but after 20 hours of this I had reached my limit. If you think that it is worth calling him back I can.

 

[tedwca]

Definitely call him back. The Directory is the road map to the harddrive and tells the computer where all your files are stored and how to find them(kinda matches the issues you have) It could be damaged from software writing to the wrong place on the HD or the HD may have bad sectors. The first thing Apple will do if you send it to them is to re partition the drive and re install the operating system. If it works normally then they will send it back with no trouble found. Make sure you do this step before sending in for repair and document how to reproduce the issue. I doubt they will replace it without trying to repair it first. Having to do an erase and install in the 3rd week is not a good thing, but it all depends on what caused it to become corrupted in the first place. It could have been a bad migration of data, the directory was damaged somehow and caused critical files to be overwritten, it's really impossible to say, but if an erase and install fixes it, chances are it will stay fixed.

 

[annr]

Definitely call him back. The Directory is the road map to the harddrive and tells the computer where all your files are stored and how to find them(kinda matches the issues you have) It could be damaged from software writing to the wrong place on the HD or the HD may have bad sectors. The first thing Apple will do if you send it to them is to re partition the drive and re install the operating system.

I'll grant the tech that his theory of directory structure damage is a good one, but I'm not sold that it the only problem, a symptom or disease (?), or as you say that there aren't bad sectors on the HD.

I bet if I had a software and hardware guy in the same room they could figure it out and convince me so that I would feel comfortable keeping and using the computer.