SOG Folders: Why I don't own one. (Yet)

[baraqyal]

For years, I’ve had a healthy respect for SOG. SOG makes great tools at good prices.

So, why don’t I have any SOG folders? I’ve been thinking about it for the last few days.

Here’s what I came up with.

Lockbacks

SOG currently has 10 models of lockbacks, ranging from the Microdot to the Tomcat II. All of them are AUS 6, except for the X-42 Autoclip in BG-42. Five of them are metal bodied, five are FRN.

Lockbacks function well, but really don’t interest me when I can get an Axis lock, Arc lock, or Compression lock folder. And honestly, I’d rather have a good liner lock than a lock back. AUS 6 is really unacceptable – even with a good heat treatment, I’d rather go with AUS 8 at the bare minimum. With the average lockbacks from SOG in the MSRP $60 range, for a retail of between $35-45, I would expect a little better steel. The X-42 Autoclip is an exception. BG 42 is nice.

Lockbacks have their place, but SOG seems stuck in the 80’s with 10 very similar designs.

Assisted Openers

SOG has 3 models of Assisted Opening folders. I have no doubt that SOGs technology is superior to Kershaw’s, but Kershaw dominates the market. The chive and scallion are available virtually everywhere, from Walmart to the average sports store. The flash is neat, but sure looks an awful lot like a switchblade. The chive looks like a toy. The average folder is fast enough for me – and I’ve never had problems getting them open. I would place the assist technology under “novelty”, and I’d be willing to bet that they become illegal (redefined as switch blades) in the next few years.

The Arc Lock

The best part of SOG’s line of folders is the Arc lock.

Unfortunately, the only one I would buy is the sculptura. Very sweet little knife at a very excellent price. And, it has AUS 8 steel. Why it’s not more highly lauded on the rest of bladeforums is beyond me.

The pentagon is ok. However, it has some issues – first of all, its AUS 8. Second, it’s FRN. Not much of a high-end tactical folder. Is it even available in plain edge? The price is cheap, but for another $20 to $30, you can get the Spyderco Military or Benchmade 710, both of which are G10 handled and have better blade steels.

The vision could have been better. Few knife knuts take the Americanized-tanto seriously. Even fewer want “partially serrated” edges. Smooth titanium handles are nice, but hard to grip, especially when they get wet. The X-rays FRN handles are not too great. The night vision is pretty ideal, except for the blade geometry/partial serrated edge. I know there was a small run of plain edged visions, but I don’t know where they were available for sale. Others agree with me.

I believe that SOG needs to leverage its greatest strength in the folder department, the arc lock. Take the arc lock and run with it. License it to custom makers in exchange for new designs. License it to other makers who don’t have a modern lock (e.g. Gerber, Buck, Emerson, etc) and make $$$. Stop making so many AUS 6/FRN lockbacks, spend the money instead on retooling for more arc lock folders. It’s not like the arc lock is a super exclusive design that needs to be kept in house – the axis lock and “ultra” lock function very similarly. Why not dominate them?

Stop screwing around with partially serrated edges. Yes, they sell more to non-knife knuts. But, if SOG really wants to play with the big boys, it MUST offer plain edge on EVERY model. Knife knuts buy more knives per capita than the average joe, especially of the more expensive models. Plus, knife knuts are free word of mouth advertising. Why not make them happy?

Enough with the Americanized tantos, too. Lets try some conventional shapes. How about a folding tigershark? With nice green G-10 handles, double liners, and an arc lock? SOG is known for its bowies – how bout a folding one?

I may not know a huge amount running a knife company. But, I think I see a serious trend here. I see SOG stuck in the technological boonies. I see it loosing market share to Kershaw, CRKT, etc. I see that SOG has folder designs that are novel, but unsuccessful. SOG could have just as serious of a following in the folder department as it does in the multitool and fixed blade departments.

Build me some folders that I want to buy.

Flame Retardant:
Just my $.02 cents. My numbers/facts may be incorrect. Feel free to vehemently disagree with everything I’ve said. Your mileage may vary.

Thanks!
-- Rob

 

[glockman99]

It's my bet that you have never handled a Tomcat. Sure it's a lock-back, but it's a VERY sturdy folder...The best of the best as far as I'm concerned. And the one that I have is AUS-8 stainless.

Tomcat:

 

[glockman99]

Oh, and..."How about a folding Tigershark?"...I LOVE big folders, but ARE YOU NUTS???.. Do you realize that the Tigershark has a 9 inch-long blade?...And you'd like to see THAT as a folder???.. (And I thought that I am nuts packing my Cold Steel Vaquero Grande, with its' 6 inch-long blade!..)

Hmmmm...Now that I think about it, a Folding Tigershark is not a bad idea...Ron???..

 

[wildmanh]

baraqyal, the Plain Edge Visions are avaliable directly from SOG. Could you explain what you don't like about Lockbacks? I'd like to understand your position better.

SOG is known for its bowies – how bout a folding one?

I believe the Tomcat II and Stingray fall in that catagory.

 

[wildmanh]

Originally posted by glockman99
Oh, and..."How about a folding Tigershark?"...I LOVE big folders, but ARE YOU NUTS???.. Do you realize that the Tigershark has a 9 inch-long blade?...And you'd like to see THAT as a folder???.. (And I thought that I am nuts packing my Cold Steel Vaquero Grande, with its' 6 inch-long blade!..)

Hmmmm...Now that I think about it, a Folding Tigershark is not a bad idea...Ron???..

A folding Tigershark! Talk about an interesting knife to make. Expencive too. But oh so cool!

 

[Bobby B]

In no particular order (Ron will correct my multiple mistakes ):

Lockbacks: Are still (IMHO) one of the strongest locks out there, it's a solid bar. Many people still prefer this "traditional lock".

AUS6 Steel: When properly heat treated it is an excellent steel with great corrosion resistance (better than AUS8 or ATS34 and many others) balanced with a good price point. That is why they can sell for around $40. Read up on the AG Russel site where he makes specific reference to the excellence of SOG's heat treat. This has been covered in great detail before....(in this thread, among others...) so I won't do it again.

Assisted Openers: With the Blink available soon SOG will have 3 (5 if you count the aluminum seperate from the Zytel Flash) assisted openers. I quite like the Flash 1, I have carried it a lot since getting it. The assisted opening is novel (I grant you) but also handy at times. As for whether they will be classified as switchblades, I'd say it's close to even money one way or the other, but that's just my guess... I personally don't think the Flash looks at all like a switchblade (what type?), but again...YMMV

-Arc Lock: Love it, and wish it were on more knives!!!

-Vision: great knife , I too wish it were available in a more "conventional" blade, SOG's Jet Edge (ATS 34 steel BTW...) blade for example...
-Pentagon Elite(s): designed for a purpose, an affordable, tough LEO knife.

-Partially Serrated blades: I suspect strictly a sales issue. I like them on bigger blades, but have decided I like small blades (under 3") plain.

Knife knuts would ( pretty much by definition ) buy more knives per capita... that's what makes the knife knuts... but there are MORE non-knife knuts who want a good blade at a decent price, rather than a great blade at an expensive one... I am guessing they would outnumber knife knuts as purchasers by 20+:1. Look at the Forum Knife put out by BM, they made 200, but had some left for their website (now all gone). There is a difference between what people want($$$) and what they will be willing to pay for ($) ...

Folding Bowies: There was one, the rare (didn't sell? ) Team Leader Model # S3(?)
Here it is with a Jet Edge (ATS 34 linerlock...)

Click for bigger pic

Originally posted by SOGmann99
It's my bet that you have never handled a Tomcat. Sure it's a lock-back, but it's a VERY sturdy folder...The best of the best as far as I'm concerned. And the one that I have is AUS-8 stainless.

I didn't realize that SOG ever made any AUS8 Tomcats: are you sure? Ron? Help???

No flames... I love a well thought out post, even if I don't necessarily agree...

PS Welcome to the SOG Forum - Where well thought out, polite opinions always welcome...
Rob

 

[Steven Roos]

Originally posted by wildmanh
baraqyal, the Plain Edge Visions are avaliable directly from SOG. Could you explain what you don't like about Lockbacks? I'd like to understand your position better.

Is that the same with fixed blades? Will SOG sell me a plain edge SEAL 2000?

 

[calyth]

I personally putting of FRN handles and AUS6 steels are a mistake.
I have FRN handled knifes in AUS 6, and they work perfectly, and I personally prefer the lockback better because it's stronger and I suppose a linerlock could be built with bad geometry so that the lock up isn't good enough.
And trust me, these words are a from a person who use to look at lockbacks in disgust, and now I own more lockbacks than liners.

 

[NGK-Webmaster]

Ok going into my speech about blade steels again but shorting it : How many people would be able to take a well made knife that has no markings of the kind of steel on it and tell what it is? none i guess, for everyday use and carry, does it really matter? or are people just trying to keep up with the what everyone esle says is the best?.

next issue, as some of you know I am a police officer, i have taken the "assisted opening" knives to the DA and had him look at them and give his opinion on the law in this state, and it is: yep that falls under the switchblade law. Why? because it is mechanical,opens by use of a spring, or "any" mechanism. just so you peeps know what the law types think. Me personnaly, I dont give a crap if you carry a traditional switchblade on you, dont bother me one bit as long as your not using it to hurt,damage etc. someone else and you dont ever pull it on me, then it will be mine, once i take it outa ya hand laying on the ground, but hey that goes for any knife that anyone pulls on me, or gun or nuclear missle or.........

Ok last thing: I wish SOG would make more plain edge versions of their knives myself.

 

[Nathan S]

I'll add my voice to those wishing that SOG would stop offering only combo edge blades on so many of their products. I've said it before and I'll say it again: the combo edge, for me, reppresents the worst of both worlds. I'll never buy another one.

I also wish that SOG (and other manufacturers) would offer MORE lockback models. I love the lockback: it's simple, yet secure. I'd swap my arc-lock Vision for a lockback version in a heartbeat. I think too many knife companies feel pressured to come up with the next flavor of the month, and so ignore a locking system that may not be sexy, but has stood the test of time and works great.

With regard to the Tomcat, Glockman is right about the lock-up: that thing is bombproof. Mine (which has cocobolo scales, truly beautiful) has absolutely zero blade play.

 

[glockman99]

Originally posted by Bobby B
...Folding Bowies: There was one, the rare (didn't sell? ) Team Leader Model # S3(?)...I didn't realize that SOG ever made any AUS8 Tomcats: are you sure? Ron? Help???...

Isn't the Tomcat ALSO a "folding Bowie"?..

The SOG literature states that the Tomcat is listed as 440A, and I was wrong on the "AUS-8" thing, as SOG calls AUS-6 "440A", and AUS-8, SOG calls "440C". I had my Tomcat (AUS-6) and Trident (AUS-8) steels mixed-up.:footinmou.

 

[baraqyal]

Glockman,

You're right, I haven't handled a Tomcat. It appears to be a very nice knife, and I bet that it is very, very strong. (At 8 oz!! The Spydie Chinook is only 7.25 oz!) I’m not suggesting that SOG eliminate ALL lockbacks, I’m suggesting that they eliminate some of them and concentrate more on ARC locks.

Also, I realize the tigershark has a 9 inch blade. (Very sweet knife, drool) The folding version could be scaled down somewhat – say.. 6.5 inches, with the same bladeshape? I bet the ARC lock could safely hold a blade that size (something I would doubt with a lockback).

Wildmanh,

There’s nothing particularly wrong with lockbacks. I love my Spyderco lockbacks. I just wouldn’t buy any more. It’s far harder to close a lockback one handed without having your fingers in the way. Spyderco solves this by putting a big choil before the blade. Also, although particular examples exist of very strong lockbacks (the Chinook, and I would guess, the tomcat), for the most part, lockbacks are not as strong as arc/compression/axis locks. While this isn’t a problem in small knives, it sure as heck is in large (4”+) knives. I’m pretty attached to my fingers. Anyways, call it personal preference. I bet you’ll find that most younger knife buyers would agree with me.

I believe the plain edged visions are available directly through SOG at full MSRP – most brick and mortar shops I’ve been to don’t even charge that. At full MSRP, you’d be better off buying a PE Benchmade or Spyderco at a discount from a Brick & Mortar or Online retailer.

Also, both the Tomcat II and Stingray are lockbacks. My point was, how about a bowie shaped Arc lock?

Bobby B,

As for the lockback design: Many people also still prefer the traditional slipjoints. Compare the percentage of sales that slipjoints had 40 years ago to today. In fact, compare the percentage of sales of lockbacks from 10 years ago to today. I’d be very willing to bet that both have fallen significantly percentage wise. I’d also be willing to bet that they will continue to fall as new and more “advanced” designs appear. Tradition has its place – SOG should continue to produce lockbacks. Maybe just not so many.

AUS 6 steel is an OK steel, especially with a good heat treatment like SOG’s. I won’t argue with that. However, steel is a selling point of knives, just like heated seats and power windows are in Cars. Not everyone cares about having heated seats and power windows, but most would take it if they can get it for a similar price. I don’t particularly think that corrosion resistance is a primary concern of most buyers – look at the emergence of A2/D2/M2. Especially when most modern Stainless steels already have pretty good corrosion resistance IMHO (I’ve never had a problem with ATS34). AUS 6 may lower the price point a bit, but even Chinese manufacturers like CRKT are moving away from it. I’m just saying – why not AUS 8? How much would it really bump up the price?

I think the Flash looks like a switchblade, because of the safety switch. It has nothing to do with opening the knife, true. It’s not a switchblade. But, the legal difference is a subtle point, and not one that I’d like to explain to a police officer/DA/jury. It’s ok for SOG to sell them, but I wouldn’t put all my eggs in the assisted opener basket.

I agree with you completely on the Arc lock and Vision. As for the pentagon: though the pentagon is designed to be affordable, I’m not sure that LEO’s who know enough to be willing to buy a $65 or $75 knife instead of the $4 Chinese knock off special wouldn’t also be as willing to spend an extra $20 or $30 to get an AFCK/710/Military/Police/ETC, which have G10 handles, and the “better” blade steels instead of FRN and AUS 8. Maybe I’m wrong. The pentagon is nice, just not my style.

As for partially serrated blade: Benchmade, Spyderco, et al, all sell PE’s in their higher end knives. The regular Vision has an MSRP of $189.95. That is most certainly not in “regular joe” territory. That’s in the knife knut range. Producing a knife that is in the $200 range, and then aiming its features at the regular joe doesn’t make much sense IMHO.

Also, I’m not saying all knife knuts are forumites. Most forumites are knife knuts, but not all knife knuts are forumites. Forum knives are not a fair measure of how many knives knuts buy.

Knife knuts buy higher end knives. Regular Joe’s buy cheaper knives. But, if you’re aiming at only selling to the average Joe, you’re competing with the famous “MADE IN CHINA” brand. There is a difference between what people want dollar wise, and what they’re willing to pay for. The trick is finding a good compromise. Knife knuts buy lots of knives. They are a growing market. Knife knuts convince Regular Joes to buy knives. Knife knuts work at and own knife stores. Knife knuts buy lots of cheaper knives as gifts. All I’m saying is: try and keep them happy. Making them unhappy is not good for the bottom line. Many knife knuts do not like lockbacks, Aus 6, partially serrated edges, tanto points, and FRN, but do like the arc lock, better steels, and G10/CF/Micarta/Etc handles. Keep making some knives that are affordable to the average Joe, but continue to improve them a little so the knife knuts stay interested.

No flames... I love a well thought out post, even if I don't necessarily agree...
PS Welcome to the SOG Forum - Where well thought out, polite opinions always welcome...

Thanks, BTW. J Hopefully, SOG will see this as “constructive” criticism.


NGK-Webmaster,

How many people would be able to take a well made knife that has no markings of the kind of steel on it and tell what it is? none i guess, for everyday use and carry, does it really matter? or are people just trying to keep up with the what everyone esle says is the best

See above on the steel. AUS 6 is ok. But, even the cheap, cheap knockoff brands will eventually have “better” steels (Some “cheap” brands like CRKT already do). The average person may also be happy with 420J. But then, why would they spend $40 for knife, when they can get the same thing for $5? SOG needs to stay ahead of the knockoff crowd, or risk elimination from the game. I doubt very seriously that SOG could compete at the $5 level.

Also, its good to hear a LEO’s perspective on assisted openers.


Anyways, thanks for all the replies. Have a good day!
-- Rob

 

[marty123]

Also, bring back carbon steel for some of SOG's blades.
I have a Tigershark and a Recon Governement, both in carbon steel. I would be less likely to buy them again in AUS6, especially a big knife like the Tigershark. I also have a Sogtech II, a Pentagon, and a Sogtech folder in AUS6. It wouldn't hurt to move up to AUS8. I think that the bar has been raised for steel comppared to what it was six years ago or more.
I'm fine with lockback, especially as done by SOG. Sog's lockback doesn't need upgrading anymore than does Spyderco's. The other locks are good too, but a good lockback is just fine with me. Strong and reliable.
Assisted opening (AO): don't want it. A hole or stud is fast enough for me. Also, AO could be finicky, mechanically. And of course there's the troublesome legality of AO.

 

[NGK-Webmaster]

baraqyal
Your post are well too articulated and thought out for me, makes me think too much UHG. Keep it up.

 

[Ron Andersen]

Hi Rob (baraqyal),

Thanks for taking the time to stop by the SOG Forum and sharing your thoughts about our products and our company’s philosophy. With very few exceptions, we are open to hear from everyone and their perspectives; which includes you. Sometimes, those perspectives have led to new products or even product revisions.

Though your posts in this thread were quite frank and gauche, I was not offended (since Spencer is currently out-of-town, I have yet to find out of you’ve offended him). You should probably know, though, that the SOG Forum leans heavily toward being family-oriented and is more genteel in personality. Statements like “Stop screwing around with partially serrated edges,” “Enough with the Americanized tantos,” and “I see SOG stuck in the technological boonies” did go beyond constructive criticism you talked about and were not appreciated.

You are certainly free to your opinions (and I do appreciate that you shared them). With several of your points, we are in agreement. On an assortment of other specific points, I vehemently disagree. I don’t feel, though, that a point-by-point “rebuttal” is called for, so I’ll pass.

The guiding principle I give knife buyers is this: Ask yourself what you’re looking for in a particular knife purchase (make a checklist, if need be), then go out and acquire a knife that best exemplifies what you had envisioned.

After reading your posts, I had the distinct feeling that SOG was some kind of a small and fledgling company. Knowing that wasn’t accurate, I “shook my head” to clear my mind of those myths and took a look at SOG the way it really is. SOG is among the largest and most acclaimed companies in this industry. We have been a leader in our industry, offering excellent and diverse materials, using exceptional craftsmanship, as well as employing innovative technology since our inception 17 years ago. This has been affirmed by abundant contributions of illustrious industry awards and flattering magazine reviews written by some of this industry’s most esteemed knife experts.

Rob, SOG may not have a knife for you. We’re OK with that. There are a plethora of knife makers offering wide assortments of products. I’m sure finding the right knife/knives for you somewhere should not be too difficult.

SOG does have acute focus and direction. We are keenly perceptive of our company’s philosophy. Our targeted consumers have been identified and products have been conceived and produced to enhance their lives. You said that SOG seems “stuck in the ‘80’s.” I can promise that we’re not “stuck” anywhere we haven’t chosen to be.

Again, we do appreciate an open format here in the SOG Forum for people to come and share their comments; whether they are good or bad. And I do appreciate much of what you had to say. Your tone was just a bit less genteel than we’re used to around these parts.

You may contact me via email at ron@sogknives.com or phone at 888.SOG.BEST, ext. 228 if you would like to talk further. It is unlikely I’ll continue with “discussion” in this thread. Rob, I’ll be more than happy to respond to questions or comments from you in another thread if you would like to start one.

Take care.

 

[baraqyal]

Ron,

I apologize for the offensive comments. In the future, I will work to make my comments more genteel.

Thanks for your response. I'm well aware that SOG is by no means a fledgling company. You have many wonderful products, and you do have knives for me, just not folders.

I hope someday in the future you will have an arc lock folder for me as well.

If all your products are selling well, by all means, ignore me. I was just trying to put in my $.02 on future product development.

Anyways, keep up the good work.

Thanks!
-- Rob

 

[Bobby B]

Originally posted by glockman99
Isn't the Tomcat ALSO a "folding Bowie"?..

Yes, it is... BUT... the Team leader is SK5... like the Bowie, and darn near as big - and heavier... at a shade over 14 oz it is halfway between the Bowie and TIGERSHARK(!!!) in weight...

 

[glockman99]

Bobby B,

The Team Leader kind of got me to thinking that a Tomcat with a 5.25 inch-long blade, (and dual thumb-studs like the Tomcat II) would be QUITE a nice folding Bowie knife!...(SOG needs a BIG folder!)..

 

[Bobby B]

The Team Leader kind of got me to thinking that a Tomcat with a 5.25 inch-long blade, (and dual thumb-studs like the Tomcat II) would be QUITE a nice folding Bowie knife!...(SOG needs a BIG folder!).

That would be a nice knife, especially with an Arc lock!
Flat or hollow ground? SK5 or AUS8?