solding guards or is epoxy good enough?

chknifemaker

chknifemaker

Joined
Jun 30, 2013
Messages
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I was reading Nick Wheeler's knife making tutorial and he doesn't solder his guards he just uses epoxy and I was wondering if there were advantages to epoxy over solder?
Thanks
Daniel
 
Bo T said:
Epoxy is a lot easier to work with.
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True enough! But I would never buy a house where someone told me the metal plumbing had been epoxied instead of soldered. There is a use and purpose for anything and everything, and longevity/permanence is not a feature of epoxy at this time. It is reasonably decent stuff for materials like wood. Epoxy is too brittle and rigid for anything else. Just so you know PLPremium caulking adhesive took over from the outdoor epoxy market very soon after it was introduced in the early 1990s by virtue of it's being cheaper/easier to use and being far and away more durable.
 
Apples to oranges. Epoxy (the right kind) can work very well. I use the metalized epoxy for the guards, the 5-6h stuff. The front is a press fit, and the rear is filled. I use 24h west systems epoxy for the handle (or equivalent if out of stock.) The issue with plumbing is its a corrosive environment, and experiences high temperature fluctuations.
 
I'm going to stick my neck out here and say 90+ percent of the people using
epoxy can't do a good job of soldering a guard. Absolutley nothing wrong with
epoxy and much easier to work with and clean up. If the guard is fitted right
you really can't see a joint, as good as solder?------NEVER.
Ken.
 
Solder or JB weld/epoxy main job is to seal the joint and keep out corrosion.

Sometimes solder is used to hide a sloppy fitting guard and actually can lead to corrosion and failure due to trapped flux in the joint.

You can examine the joints of those using JB weld and see how good their workmanship and the tight fit of the guard because it is not hidden by solder.
 
Would you have to use a heat sink on the blade if soldering, I imagine we are talking after heat treat.
Otherwise it seems that the heat transfer could possibly effect the treat?
Please those that solder chime in here.
Thanks.
 
Soft soldering won't affect the heat treat if you're careful.
Any guard that is soldered should be a very tight fit, and the solder will barely show. I agree with KC about people not knowing how to solder.
Properly done soldering is stronger than an epoxy bond and will seal better.
 
I do not solder. I have and I can do a good job at it. But I have found that with a proper fit it is not necessary. I have a test knife that I use in the yard all the time. I do not oil it and have been letting it patina naturally. I even forgot it outside for 2 weeks during a rainstorm. The blade is 5160 and is press fit into a brass guard. There is not sign of additional corrosion around the guard blade joint. The knife has been going for 9 years now.

The possible problems associated with solder made me decide not to use it. IE Heating after final temper, and pockets of flux causing subsurface rust that you cannot see. Also there is no way you can get as clean a finish on a soldered guard you can on a pressed and epoxied guard. Well if you can I have never seen it done.
 
300Six said:
, and longevity/permanence is not a feature of epoxy at this time. It is reasonably decent stuff for materials like wood. outdoor epoxy market very soon after it was introduced in the early 1990s by virtue of it's being cheaper/easier to
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Yeah, go try that theory in the custom boatbuilding industry. Rybovich started using epoxy in the late 50's/ear;y 60's and the cold molded mahogany and epoxy boats they built starting in 1960 still look brand new if you drill into one of the hulls that has been properly maintained. As for knife guards, soft solder and epoxy alike are primarily for sealing, as soft solder is with copper water pipe. By the way, most of our plumbing down here nowadays is PVC and that is glued together.
 
kc custom said:
I'm going to stick my neck out here and say 90+ percent of the people using
epoxy can't do a good job of soldering a guard. Absolutley nothing wrong with
epoxy and much easier to work with and clean up. If the guard is fitted right
you really can't see a joint, as good as solder?------NEVER.
Ken.
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And yet the OP was talking about Nick Wheeler who on a bad day is in the top 10% of that top 10% you refer to. ;)
 
Ask what's best...not just what's good enough.....Learn to do each method properly, do destructive
testing, and decide for yourself.
 
Well, there's guards and there's guards, aren't there?
It could be anything from a takedown frame style that's made with no solder or epoxy to a Loveless style that's made with some of each plus pins.
My first step by step when I was learning to make fixed blades was the Loveless book, and he used pins AND solder on his guards, plus a nice tight fit, and I consider that pretty redundant- I'd like to see an example of a well done solder joint coming loose- it's hard to imagine what, short of a few blows with a sledge, might dislodge it.
We've talked a lot about epoxy based metal/metal and wood/metal, and the consensus is pretty much that it's a sealant that can have some significant adhesive properties, more than the other way around.
Comparing its use in boatbuilding to knifemaking is a little misleading, since in boats the epoxy is doing what it's designed to do- adhering two porous materials.

I'd trust Nick to make a good decision on attachment methods, he has a way of thinking through stuff like that!

PS. If you do the prep correctly and apply the heat right and use the right solder, the joint is done before the blade overheats, and you can set it up to prevent any chance of that.
Overheating is one of the most common causes of joint failure, so you're avoiding that anyway, right?
 
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I solderd guards for years until a client brought back a knife for handle replacement (ran over it with his truck). There was rust under the guard caused by flux as the knife was sealed and was going to make the tang fail at some point. Also I found out Jerry Fisk was his using JB weld and thought if it is good enough for him its good enough for me. Just my 2 cents.
 
Many collectors and buyers view a perfectly-done solder joint as a sign of high skill and attention to detail. I can't argue with that, especially since I do not have that skill :grumpy:

It is possible for them to fail as mentioned above though, even when they look perfect.

As for strength... I don't know of many people who are only using solder or epoxy to hold their guards on, so I'm not sure how much it really matters. (everyone I can think of making high-quality guarded narrow tang knives also builds the rest of the handle to fit closely, and they're held on by mechanical means... so there's at least two things holding the entire assembly together).

I do know that when I've had to remove a decently-fitted JB-welded guard for various reasons, it took a lot of doing and thumping. That tells me it's probably not going to just come apart in anything resembling normal use.
 
Knifemaker John Nelson Cooper is the one who came up with the idea to braze on guard to keep out the corrosion and had a patent on the idea. Guards are not soldered, brazed or JB welded on because it makes them strong...it is to keep out corrosion.

What make a guard strong is being properly fitted and held in place by pins or the handle.
 
jdm61 said:
And yet the OP was talking about Nick Wheeler who on a bad day is in the top 10% of that top 10% you refer to. ;)
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I was in no way ragging on Nick Wheeler or any other knifemaker period. Take a look at some
of the stuff Loveless did 45+ years ago, lets add Steve Johnson, John Young and a few others.
It is a seal at the joint, you can use whatever you want to seal it. I like Karl Andersen's beeswax
idea on a takedown. If it comes to soldered copper or glued plastic on house plumbing I'll
take the copper every time.
Ken.
 
If you ask four knifemakers this question you will get five answers.

I think all of us can agree:
1) ALL guards need sealing........... and that there are several ways to seal them.
2) ALL guards need to be properly and snugly fitted..........and solder or epoxy isn't a replacement for sloppy fitting parts.
3) The FIRST place people who know knives look at when critiquing a knife is the guard/blade joint.
4) Getting that joint perfect is a sign of a skilled knifemaker.



I do agree that many who badmouth soldering guards are poor at it. But that does not mean that many who are good at it don't use other methods.
I use solder 90% of the time, the rest of the time it is JB weld or a take-down.




I will mention what I think is the #1 reason for sloppy fitting guards and large solder/epoxy filled joints - Fitting the guard before HT.



Final comment on well known makers and their guards -
Bill Moran was considered the epitome of a knifemaker. He knew how to make perfect fittings, and he knew how to solder. But he made many knives with big gaps filled with lots of solder. ...... the point is that even those who know don't always do.
 
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Huge learning experience for me here. One thing I did not know that Bladsmith just enlighten me on was, don't fit the guard till after the HT. I would have screwed that up. lol
 
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