Sole Authorship

Rick Marchand

Rick Marchand

Donkey on the Edge
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How much can you farm out and still claim "sole authorship" in knife making? I'll throw a few questions at you but feel free to take it where it needs to go. Hearing it from the perspective of smiths, stock removers and folder makers would be interesting as they all have different issues to contend with.

How important is "inhouse" to you?
Do you farm out proceedures or purchase prefab parts/materials?
Where do you draw the line?
Does performance take precedence over sole authorship?



Rick
 
I try to do everything inhouse to a reasonable degree. I would like to smelt my own steel but "take my chances" buying from a reputable supplier.:D Aside from simple tools and machines, I make what I need. My handle materials are harvested and processed and I oftentimes go as far as making my own cordage for wraps/lanyards. All forging, grinding and profiling is inhouse, of course... as well as any etching or carving (However crude it may be.. lol) I heat treat in my own shop using a open gas forge. This is limiting as far as the types of steel I can use... and there is a wider margin for error. To some, heat treat is as easy as pushing buttons and interpreting TTT charts... for me, heat treat represents trial, error, patience, studying, networking, sweat, broken blades and sleeples nights.(Gawd, I love my work) I make outdoor "bush" knives and realise that there are better materials and proceedures that would yield blades with superior attributes... but I really enjoy what I do, and make a damn good knife, if I may be so bold.

In a pinch... aside from the forge and anvil... all the tools and materials I need to make a good knife and sheath can fit into a pail. I like that... for now.;)

I'm still in my infancy as far as knife making is concerned... which is even more exciting!
 
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Is this a continuation of the rant threads? hehe I stock remove, so although I buy the steel, I cut, grind, ht and handle all myself. I suspect I may not be getting the best out of my ht yet but my forge is now up and running so I will have better control. However, I would still claim sole author if I sent out for ht, I would just give that company credit for it. When I get into forging, I will still have to buy the steel, it just wont need to be in exact sizes. How much can you farm out? I would say you should at least grind the blade and handle by yourself. IMO if you have a number of blades to cut out or if you are using a steel that you cant properly cut with the tools you have, farming that aspect out would be acceptable to a degree but if you farm out the grind as well and only make the handle and the final finishing, you might as well be making a kit. Not that there is anything wrong with making a kit knife.
 
tattooedfreak said:
Is this a continuation of the rant threads?...
Click to expand...

Yeah, I suppose.... :D

I didn't want to start that up again. I learned some things and it didn't get too far out of hand. This is a more appropriate venue to epand on the topic.


Thanks for responding.
Rick
 
Well, you asked and I have a lot to tell.
I do sole authorship in 99% of my knives. The only operation that I ever ordered was HT of a dozen of CPM S30V blades. I sent them to Paul Boss and every time I sell one of the blades I mention this fact.

As for the rest of my knives and crafts.
I smelt my own steel. WOOTZ steel. I do it with no actual profit. There are very few people willing to pay for that backbreaking and brainbreaking job. There are even less people that can really appreciate WOOTZ steel. You've got to know what it is and a lot more to appreciate it.
Making my own WOOTZ steel is the clear sign of my deep and uncurable insanity. But as far as I am crazy - I don't care much and continue.
I can make damascuss, but I don't like it. I mean the result may be pretty, but I always will be concerned about possible flaws that are not visible. So I make it more for fun than for purpous. Once in a while.
I forge most of my blades very close to the final shape. In many casses I do not even mention it when sell. Most of the customers will never see or feel the difference. Plus I HATE cheap bragging when two hummer hits make the blade "forged". If the customer does not like my knife - so be it. I am not going to "promote" it. Bad businessman I am... I know, I know.
I use whatever steel I can get. But I never will sell the blade made of unknown steel. I must know for sure what I forge, heat treat and sell to the customer. Just to insure the proper tech. I can make a tool for myself from a piece of unknown steel, feel nothing wrong about it.
I pick and collect all hardwood I can get my hands on. From anywhere in any condition. I cut it, dry it, stabilize it if needed.
I did tan few hides but gave up on that. I can not compete with the factory. They do it much better. And a lot cheaper.
As for the actual knifemaking.
I make the blade(my own steel or brand made, forged from a barstock, ground from the flat stock, no cheap Chineese steels).
I HT the blade.
I make the handle form the wood I collected (or buy it if I need something exotic)
I make the bolster\guard from the antlers, horns I picked\got by hunt, or Sterling Silver(obviously not my make), Stainless steel(bought) or exotoc material(bought).
I make the sheath(cut, stich, dye, tool, finish)
I try to engrave some of my knives.

Well, I use brand made tools, though made a lot of tools myself.

About the quality.
I will never sell or even show the piece with a known flaw. I will always honestly describe the piece in detailes. I will fix or replace or return the money back if the knife failed in regular use. I will not if it was abused. That would be on my discretion.
"Hand made" does not mean it is a undestructable laser sword.
On the other hand "hand made" is not an excuse for me to sell ugly, poorly finished knives.

In general.
What to call "hand made" everyone decides on his own. Makers and customers, collectors and magazine critics. I just described my position. It is bad business position, but i have an excuse - I am crazy. So don't listen to me please, don't get in trouble.
 
Rick-

Sole authorship means just that, to me... that the knife maker did all the work in the finished product (starting with RAW materials). A bar, round, or chunk of straight steel is close enough to raw, for me. Making your own steel from sand and such is AMAZING, but not something I see as necessary to claim sole authorship.

The easiest way to define it, IMHO??? You are the only CRAFTSMAN that has laid hands on the work.

I personally don't have a problem with a guy farming stuff out, I just think he needs to be up front about it.

I have been having Paul Long make sheaths for me and I couldn't be happier.

I used to send all my air-hardening steel to Paul Bos and was very proud and up front about it. I do it all now, but if I get some weird new exotic that I'm not familiar with, I wouldn't hesitate a second to send it to Paul's successor. And I would say so right on the knife certificate/posts/etc.

I have some sheets of steel in the shop (and waiting on SOMEONE to send me the fourth sheet I paid for almost 3 years ago Huh Hem...) that I plan on having some simple utility blades water-jet cut from. But I'll be VERY upfront about it right from the git-go.




The one thing on sole-authorship argument that really is a thorn in my side is the guys that don't feel buying damascus from another maker voids their claim of sole-authorship.

I feel it TOTALLY does. Nothing bad, it just takes away the sole-authorship part.

The argument is, "Well do you smelt your own carbon steel?" Just because I didn't make the damascus doesn't mean XYZ!!!"

But I think that's a smug attitude. We are (overall) a very small knit group of folks. It's a big deal for a guy (even on the scale of the Thomas brothers shops output) to make damascus. For one craftsman, to not give credit to the smith (another CRAFTSMAN!!!) for making the damascus is crap...IMO :)
 
It's a tough call on the damascus, Nick. I think the source of the steel should be noted but where do you draw the line?.... stabilized wood, mosaic pins, custom micarta... ???

I think if you are gathering raw materials... buffalo horn, brass plate, mosaic pins and a bar of Thomas damascus... It is still not a knife until you work those materials. If you can work those materials yourself from begining to end, you can claim that its your own work. However, once you start down that path, if at any point, you outsource a PROCEDURE, it becomes a collaboration.

Perhaps there are different levels of Sole Authorship? I see no difference in buying a bar of Damasteel than I do mosaic pins, linen micarta or carbon fibre scales.

Thoughts?

Rick
 
On something like damascus and mosaic from a particular person I think it is only right to give credit. For example, if I think Joe makes great damascus, and Bill makes great mosaic, I should be proud to give them credit on the materials, it can only enhance my products appeal.
"I crafted the knife from the best materials I could use. Here are the craftsmen for those materials." Just like if using standard steels we choose the right ones for the job and avoid poor quality goods.

I don't see it as a matter of Sole Authorship so much as giving credit where it is due to your sources. It's one thing with mass produced materials, but with things like hand done mosaic and damascus it's worth giving credit and only fair to those other craftsmen. I see it like a custom car. The shop that makes it takes credit for the CAR, but they list who's parts they used for things that matter because their buyers or fans will recognize the quality of those components and it both serves to enhance their work and the reputation (and business) of the component companies.
 
I feel strongly that it is not sole authorship if someone else made the damascus! In a knife made from damascus often the steel is one of the most obvious design elements, and good damascus is artistry. If you make a blade out of Delbert Ealy or Deker Damascus you are taking a piece of someone else's artistry and giving it prominent placement. Sole authorship means that all of the creative and controllable variables are directly worked by you. Technically it's not really sole authorship if someone else does the heat treat. I agree with Nick, starting with raw materials is sole authorship, starting with someone else's damascus means that you made a knife starting with a piece of someone else's artistry

-Page
 
You make great points... damascus is a step beyond raw materials.

Can we agree that traditionally and within reason, "raw materials" include any homogenous mill produced steel?

What of the other elements in knifemaking? (scales, pins, bolts)

I guess it all boils down to being honest and respectful to fellow craftsmen.


Rick
 
Rick Marchand said:
Can we agree that traditionally and within reason, "raw materials" include any homogenous mill produced steel?

What of the other elements in knifemaking? (scales, pins, bolts)

I guess it all boils down to being honest and respectful to fellow craftsmen.


Rick
Click to expand...

1. I would agree that mill produced steel does not affect the sole authorship.
Basicaly nowdays you can not get any other steel, unless you smelt. Though stock removal from the Nicholson file is a touchy case. It's very little hand work and no HT. Just shaping.

2. Bolts and nuts - I would accept. Scales probably too(touchy again).

3. Yep, being honest is a must. And than it's up to a customet to decide if is is "sole" enough for him.
 
What about the example mentioned....Damasteel?

I would lean in the direction of considering that more of a raw material....especially if you start with the unpatterned round barstock, but even their patterned stock....in this case it seems more like a mass produced product.

I have only read about the product and it's manufacture, but it seems to me to be an acceptable source to retain sole authorship. That being said, it appears to be a "value added" material that I would promote as a selling point and credit the source.
 
I do it all except make the steel and tan the leather basically. I dont care for pre cut materials as I dont want to be locked in to a set number of set sizes. I like being able to make the knife fit the buyers need and that means cut out my blanks one at a time so I get exactly what the buyer may need. SUCH as say a 3/32" stock SideKick vs the standard stock thickness OR someone who wants a 3/4" longer handle.

I do think outsourcing parts is up to the maker to decide if thats what they want to do. I just dont care to do it as I prefer to allow patterns to morph or evolve as needed. Plus that also means I have batches of any knife pattern I choose or need to make.

Outsourcing sheaths is a must for some but I do feel when a maker makes the sheath even as simple as mine are makes the whole package a tad more "Custom" I guess. If the buyer wants to outsource a sheath for his needs I have no problem with that.
 
Man, this is fascinating.:)

Not being a craftsman, I have nothing substantive to add to this discussion, but I surely hope you keep it up.

Just ... fascinating.
 
daviscustom said:
What about the example mentioned....Damasteel?

I would lean in the direction of considering that more of a raw material....especially if you start with the unpatterned round barstock, but even their patterned stock....in this case it seems more like a mass produced product.

I have only read about the product and it's manufacture, but it seems to me to be an acceptable source to retain sole authorship. That being said, it appears to be a "value added" material that I would promote as a selling point and credit the source.
Click to expand...
It is still someone else's work that is the most prominent artistry in the knife. Just because it is a marketed damascus does not mean it is not someone else's artistry

-Page
 
My point with the Damasteel is, if I understand the process by which it is made, it is made through a totally different process (compressed/heated powdered steel) and appears as though it could be mostly automated in its production.....at least up to the point of patterning....and if it produced through an automated process of manufacture then the only artistry involved was in the creation of the process, not the product. It appears to me that one bar of Damasteel is going to be nearly identical to the next and it is what is done with it from that point forward that is the artistry. It is, in my opinion much like working with wood, in that the way the lumber is cut from the log determines what the exposed surface of the lumber looks like. Damasteel that is made in concentric rings in the bar... you have a log/barstock with growth rings like wood as a raw material...but with the steel you get the opportunity to expose and reposition the layers to in essence create your own custom figured "wood" to work with.

I guess if you limit yourself to only working with their production run stock with either the parallel flat or concentric layers and do your own patterning this seems like Damasteel could be considered simply a high-end raw material. Having not made damascus, I probably look at it a little differently then someone who is skilled at the process. From my point of view this, at the very least, appears to be a gray area that could go either way.

I would feel comfortable using the product, but would most certainly make the material source known to a potential buyer.
 
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