some fairly demanding work with a Byrd Finch

[Cliff Stamp]

This isn't demanding work in general, but do to the very tiny size of the Finch (matchbox) it is in a different class than even most light use knives.



The main issue was at times the entire knife was inside the turkey, cleanup was the main problem. But it was basically able to handle one of the "heaviest" cutting chores in the kitchen with no ill effects.



This was fairly heavy fabric rutting, rubber backed used mats. They were cut to shape to fit a porch. Heavy force was used to do the cuts quickly, again no concerns. The mats were full of grit so the knife did need to be sharpened but just blunting, no visible damage, just a few passes on a medium Spyderco benchstone.



This was harder than the Turkey due to the shorter blade length requiring more strokes but otherwise again no real issue.



This however required a change in method. The knife is too light to chop into the wood so it was press cut. However when the knife was pressed strongly into the wood, the blade started to rotate backwards. So instead of gripping around the handle and pressing into the wood, which put a strong counter torque on the blade, I pressed down on the blade with my thumb which unloaded the lock.



Same thing here. When the handle was used to provide the force the blade really felt like it could have folded back on the lock. So the main driving force was against the blade directly in the thumb ramp. The straight cuts are easy, the round cuts are a bit challenging. The blade was visibly damaged as I cut through the raised round section as it was harder and I did a worse case run. Nothing serious, you would not see it at arms length. Fixed in a couple of minutes on the stones.

Anyway, while a very small knife, the Finch is capable of some large cutting tasks if care is taken to avoid overloading the lock. I'll eventually see just how much force it takes to rotate the blade backwards or separate it from the handle.

-Cliff

 

[Vivi]

I was going to ask if you'd plan to put it in a vice and heavily load the lock to see when it fails, but your last sentance answers that. It'll be interesting to see what it takes. Maybe a comparison to a full-size model would be in order.

 

[Cliff Stamp]

Yeah, you need some perspective of course, this is basically a key chain knife. I was really just curious as to what it could / could not do. I will load it to failure eventually.

-Cliff

 

[bigbcustom]

Cliff, I just can't resist, where are the pictures and results of batonning the finch through half a cord of seasoned hardwood? lmao, sorry...I just had to. Just funnin' ya...no disrespect intended.

 

[Cliff Stamp]

I have actually (shocking) used it for batoning but the blade is so small it doesn't off much help directly when splitting wood of any size, though I have used it to make skewers and the like. It does help for splitting indirectly because you can pound it into the wood to start a crack and then split it with wedges. Often existing cracks will intersect knots and the wrong angle and you have to make your own path. Once you do a lot of work with a blade of this size it will get you a whole new perspective on what you would expect of something like a Meadowlark let alone a Paramilitary and the 3/16"+ thick folders don't even look as much like knives as they do utility tools. Plus I just think it is really funny when someone asks me do I collect knives or remarks that they need a knife and the Finch is what I am carrying. It is even funnier when it does whatever needs to be done, though at times this requires some creativity and imagination.

-Cliff

 

[gunmike1]

You just have to love the Byrd line. They are such a bargain it's almost like stealing to get them for so cheap. I've been looking for a keychain sized knife for my wife to carry, and the finch may be the ticket. By the way Cliff, have you tried any kind of comparison testing on the Meadowlark vs. the Delica or the Cara Cara vs. the Endura for lock strength? Now that the FRN Byrd's are out it would seem like a fair test could be done. I'll have to get an FRN Cara Cara and see how it compares to my Endura for heavier tasks. However, I like seeing your reviews as you do the testing in a consistent and scientific manner while beating the snot out of the knives. I definately appreciate your work.

My G-10 Cara Cara feels stout as hell, I would think it would fall into Spyderco's heavy duty category if they rated it, and it definately feels more solid than me Endura Wave. I saw a picture of a disassembled FRN Cara Cara and the lock engagement looked just like the pictures I saw of a delica apart. The internals on the Delica definately had a much better finish, but otherwise the lock geometry looked very similar.

 

[knifetester]

Yeah, you need some perspective of course, this is basically a key chain knife. I was really just curious as to what it could / could not do. I will load it to failure eventually.

-Cliff

Why?

If it works well within its intended scope of work, and in fact for much larger tasks than it seem designed for, what more do you learn, practically speaking, from intentionally destroying the knife?

Yes, it can be destroyed, but so can every other knife.

Instead, how about refining the blade geometery so that you find how thin you can take the edge, how acute you can take the primary grind, see how high of cutting performance you can get before you see failure? Try the same with other very small knives, in a comparative fashion.

That seems like a more useful, and insightful, approach. But hey, its your knife, stick it in a vice if you want and bend away.

If a knife is not designed for extreme durability, why test it for such? Why not test it, and optimize it, for cutting performance instead? Turn it into a little straight razor or something. . .

Not being argumentative or critical, just wondering what the logic is. . .

 

[hardheart]

I like learning about what point a knife breaks, much better than any speculation of the limits of any particular design. Blade geometry can be tested and refined before the break, and Cliff generally does that anyway. I don't recall ever reading a review of his where he intentionally brought a knife to failure before sharpening it several times and doing multiple edge tests.

 

[Cliff Stamp]

By the way Cliff, have you tried any kind of comparison testing on the Meadowlark vs. the Delica or the Cara Cara vs. the Endura for lock strength?

Not yet, I want to check the edge retention/stability first.

Why?

Without such work you are letting your own limited and biased viewpoint determine how the knife should be evaluated - or worse yet, let it be determined by the manufacturer which is just completely absurd. In that case you might as well let them do the work themselves. This kind of artifical constraint is what leads to one of the largest sources of misinformation on knives as people without the required knowledge or experence constrain knives to far less than they are capable of which leads to support of defective products by arguing user abuse when in fact the knife/steel was plainly defective.

Loading a knife to failure as part of the scope of work bounds the knife by the actual reality of its ability. It also benefits to have a specific measurement of strength/durability which reflects this quantity as this then allows interpretation on a faster timescale. So for example if you determine that a particular knife will see lock failure for you with really hard whittling and you then determine that this means the lock fails at say 250 in.lbs then you can use this to determine which knives are suitable in the future before buying them.

Yes, it can be destroyed, but so can every other knife.

Of course, just like even knife will eventually go blunt and that if you reduce the edge cross section then eventually all steels will deform. This is all useful information. I know know for example how thin I can go with edges on large chopping knives precisely because I have taken edges to the point where they failed and the primary grind gets damaged. It is because I have done this I don't have an absurd perspective like RazorBack knives who noted recently that knives need 30+ degree edges which are 1/8" thick to prevent damage on hitting a knot when chopping/splitting wood.

Instead, how about refining the blade geometery so that you find how thin you can take the edge, how acute you can take the primary grind, see how high of cutting performance you can get before you see failure? Try the same with other very small knives, in a comparative fashion.

Considering that type of information is actually one of the major aspects I write about and that recently developed a model to actually calculate/predict such behavior in detail, that is kind of an absurd implication/suggestion. Now if it was the case that breaking locks/blade was all I did, then it would be obviously to note that actually doing some cutting would be of use, but considering the wealth of information I have provided in detail about that subject it is kind of silly to imply that it is something I should consider doing.

I don't recall ever reading a review of his where he intentionally brought a knife to failure before sharpening it several times and doing multiple edge tests.

Generally yes, I usually examine such work in detail before doing something harder even on knives which are actually designed more as utility tools than cutting instruments. I have even done such work on things like the Cold Steel shovel which are not even intended for fine work but I showed how with a little time/effort than can be made to do so.

-Cliff

 

[knifetester]

Thank you for the detailed and informative answer. It does in fact place several things in perspective.

Loading a knife to failure as part of the scope of work bounds the knife by the actual reality of its ability.

Once. But then you have no more knife to work with. . .

I crash a car once, I know how hard I can smash it into a wall before the fenders fall off, but I in the end I have a smashed car. It doesn't even mean that all cars like mine will act the same way. Just that one.
But again, I am not trying to flame you in any way, break as many knives as you like, as long as they are not mine.

Please note my question was not in any way intended to be silly or absurd, it was just a question.

Considering that type of information is actually one of the major aspects I write about and that recently developed a model to actually calculate/predict such behavior in detail, that is kind of an absurd implication/suggestion

.

I don't dispute that you have examined cutting performance, and you have made some notable observations regarding edge geometery, finish, hardness, etc. I am not disputing any of that.

It just seems strange that you would intentionally destroy this knife, when other knives you write about, i.e. the Opinel, Alvin's knives, SHBM, and many other reviews that you write were you don't destroy the knife.

It just seems inconsistent to me, in a perceived paradigm where consistency is strived for.

I am just of the mind that tossing a key chain sized knife in a vice and wrenching it until it snaps is not very useful information to some people, including me. Obviously it is of value to you and others, and it is your knife, so by all means snap away. Heck, throw the knife in a vat of acid to se how long it disolves, or in a smelter to see how long it takes to melt. Again, it is your knife, do with it as you please.

In the mean time, thank you for the notes on its actual performance characteristics in the above posts. Although I am not in the market for this class of knife, if I ever was the Finch is one I would give a tryout.

Again, it is your knife to do what you please with, I was just curious. Please don't be offended by my questions, that was not my intent. I have ridiculed you plenty of times, but I don't do that here anymore, it would just get me banned. This is your house, in a manner of speaking, and I am a guest here. I would not be so rude as insult you in your own living room.

In any event, it does appear that the Byrd line offers a solid value for the price. If I needed an inexpensive folde for a gift or for travel, I would look to this line of knives in a heart beat.

 

[gunmike1]

I look at Cliff's "abuse", or more like hard real world testing kind of like Glock's torture test. I would never personally bury one of my Glocks in mud, freeze it, run it over with a car, drop it from a helicopter, ect., but it is interesting to find out how much abuse it can take before it stops working. It has been done and it is interesting to note what causes the guns to finally malfuction, and what it takes to get them to work again or just plain break them. I think there is a lot to gain from the knowledge of the outer limits of what a knife can and can't take in terms of hard use or even abuse. I look at Cliff's review on the Spyderco Military and came away very imperssed with it, that even though he brought it to failure the blade was still held open by the wrecked liner lock. His torture testing of the Chinook proved just what a brute of a knife that is, and what it takes to get it to fail. I also got to see how some supposedly extremely tough knives have easily defeated liner locks. There is a wealth of information to be gleaned from that work, I'm just glad it isn't on my dime! Though I would be willing to pitch in if others were willing also to have Cliff test a few other interesting knives. I actually have a CRKT M18 that is used that I wouldn't mind donating to Cliff for some cutting and destruction testing to see what that liner lock (with the LAWKS) system could handle. The only thing really wrong with it is the clip is missing a screw and I don't have a small enough torx driver to tighten the other 2 screws. The lockup is great with no play, but it likes to burr when sharpening it. Cliff, if you got my other e mails and are interested in this knife for a torture test if you ever get the time let me know and I'll send it to you.

 

[Cliff Stamp]

It doesn't even mean that all cars like mine will act the same way.

Indeed, you can actually be confident in the fact that no other car will act exactly the same way. This is why ideally you repeat work with the same product to obtain an independent estimation of the population standard deviation. Barring that though your estimation doesn't have infinite variance. You consider all available external sources of information to reduce the uncertainty. I have for example done detailed comparisons on over 300 knives to date, including some very high end blades. In addition I have discussed evaluation with countless other makers and users and spent much time in the consideration of steel. Lastly I have a background in experimental physics so I can consider performance from the perspective of the elemental forces. It is however very true that in the persuit of knowledge you always lose something; time, money or materials. It is the former which is of most important as the latter two are much easier to replace.

It just seems strange that you would intentionally destroy this knife, when other knives you write about, i.e. the Opinel, Alvin's knives, SHBM, and many other reviews that you write were you don't destroy the knife.

Those knives were taken to failure in several regards and in fact if popular opinion was true then they all should have grossly failed long ago. I thinned the edge on the Opinel until it was damaged just cutting harder woods. I also stressed the lock in several ways and examined how it failed by compressing the wood. Similar with Alvin's knife, which he actually broke before he sent it to me and reground it and included the piece he broke off. The SHBM was also reground at the edge until it failed to be able to cut wood without the edge rippling. It was also used for very heavy utility work which functionally damaged many other knives. I do eventually intend to use Alvin's paring knife for harder work to actually determine its scope of work, however at this point it is more valuable as a stock performance benchmark as are the SHBM, Opinel, Mora 2000, and other similar knives. All of those however were used for a much wider scope of work than are generally promoted and even wider than I origionally assumed they could be used for, they just exceeded expectations.

I would not be so rude as insult you in your own living room.

Until the time at which I obtain personal perfection it is likely deserved on occasion. We all have our faults and need to be corrected, sometimes sharply, just be in the right or at least amusing. Such activity is always best in person and if you are going to insult someone, in his home is the best place because they are at their strongest there and least likely to be defensive and most likely to appreciate it if it is so deserved.

I think there is a lot to gain from the knowledge of the outer limits of what a knife can and can't take in terms of hard use or even abuse.

It also needs to be realized that there are knives that are donated for a review, some that I buy because I am interested in the geometry/steel and some are bought because I want to support the maker. It isn't reasonable to expect those knives to all be treated the same. Often it isn't clear in the reviews of the details of such knives which can cause some confusion. But as with all things, a simple question can usually clear up such confusion.

-Cliff

 

[sodak]

I would be interested in hearing more about these knives *after* they can no longer function. The SHBM, is it now ground too thin, is the steel too stressed out, or what happened that the steel no longer can perform as a knife should? Same with the Sebenza crumbling, would a re-grind cure it, or is it hopelessly destroyed? These are the questions that interest me...

 

[Cliff Stamp]

The SHBM, is it now ground too thin, is the steel too stressed out, or what happened that the steel no longer can perform as a knife should?

The SHBM was sharpened very low, basically a flat grind of <10 degrees per side. This was in the winter and chopping on woods the edge turned when cutting knots. Not large visible damage, it just would not stay very sharp. I just increase the bevel at the apex a few degrees.

Same with the Sebenza crumbling, would a re-grind cure it, or is it hopelessly destroyed?

As far as I can tell it is mangled. I sharpened it heavily at 15 degrees, removing about half a mm of steel and it just kept cracking apart. I thought for awhile that maybe the steel was fatigued after I reduced the edge angle but then my U2 has not showed similar problems and it is a similar steel, as are several ZDP-189's. I think it is just another example of a S30V knife that just quite frankly blows.

-Cliff

 

[db]

I&#8217;d also like to know a little more about at what point the Seb started to fail. Is there a history on the alterations and when they went too far for the knife? I also wonder once damage has started on a knife does it snowball from there?

 

[Cobalt]

I also wonder once damage has started on a knife does it snowball from there?

My guess would be yes. If you get a small chip on an edge and do not strop, steel, harpen it away, the knife will fail considerably faster than if you fixed it before continuing to work. Of course if the intent is to take it to failure then I guess you would not fix it.

Another factor when making mods is when you use a POWERED means to do so is heat buildup. I have used sanders to sharpen cheap knives and see what happens t the edge and have noticed that my edges went from ok to not being able to maintan at all. The steel would locally get hot enough to soften the edge. What would happen then is that the steel at the edge would bend and tear and that would propagate nto a chip and crack n the harder section which woul cause gross failure. Not good.



On the sebenza did you ever work with a BG42 model. I had one for sometime and never had chipping issues, same goes for the ATS34. Of course I did not change edge angles.

 

[Cliff Stamp]

My guess would be yes. If you get a small chip on an edge and do not strop, steel, harpen it away, the knife will fail considerably faster than if you fixed it before continuing to work.

Chips are a large weak point as they are jagged and very easy to overload. If you don't intend to sharpen them completely out then use a small rod and make a serration out of them.

Another factor when making mods is when you use a POWERED means to do so is heat buildup.

Yeah, if you blow the temper you can basically mangle the steel in any number of ways.

In the sebenza did you ever work with a BG42 model. I had one for sometime and never had chipping issues, same goes for the ATS34.

Years ago, but it wasn't mine, on loan from a forum member just for a feeler. No significant work done with it aside from general handling and such. A number of people have compared the BG-42 and S30V ones and do prefer the BG-42 blades.

Is there a history on the alterations and when they went too far for the knife? I also wonder once damage has started on a knife does it snowball from there?

The first serious damage was noted during the plywood cutting which was noted in the reivew and discussed on the forums where it took repeated and visible damage even on light cutting. Work which was repeated with several other knives of similar edge thickness/angle with no damage even with much greater force. Later it basically started responding to sharpening exactly the same as the defective Benchmades in that the edge just fractured under the stones and would not form clean. The sharpening continued until all visible chips were removed which was a significant fraction of a mm of steel ground off and the edge was still unstable.

In general if a damaged edge is not restored then it is much more prone to damage because the damage will increase the force on the edges during the cutting and as well make more of it lateral. As well when the edge takes damage more of it is damaged than what you can see because that was just the steel which was pushed past the elastic point enough to induce visible failure. There will always be fatigue in the other steel which isn't an immediate concern but does lower the strength/durability and will eventually lead to failure prematurely.

-Cliff

 

[Cobalt]

So you are regrinding edges to determine at what point the edges fracture under stress or if they roll instead? It seems like a good way to determine the fracture toughness of a steel at the edge, where Charpy values mean nothing.

Of course you are probably regrindng the edges to get better cutting efficiency and finding out the edge toughness of the metal by chance.

 

[Cliff Stamp]

So you are regrinding edges to determine at what point the edges fracture under stress or if they roll instead? It seems like a good way to determine the fracture toughness of a steel at the edge, where Charpy values mean nothing.

Indeed, it is basically a bend fracture test. I do it to maximize the cutting ability at some minimal level of durability. How much durability depends on what the knife is to be used for. A knife used just for brush cutting is generally set a few degrees lower and significantly thinner than one which has to split knotty wood, so up to 0.030"/15 or so at maximum. If I am just cutting light materials then the minimum angle is pretty much the lowest allowed by the primary grind with a small micro-bevel depending on the structure of the steel, so it can be as low as 0.005"/5.

-Cliff

 

[db]

Ok, I had thought you had done alot more to the Seb than just resharpen it.

As well when the edge takes damage more of it is damaged than what you can see because that was just the steel which was pushed past the elastic point enough to induce visible failure. There will always be fatigue in the other steel which isn't an immediate concern but does lower the strength/durability and will eventually lead to failure prematurely.

-Cliff

That is what I have thought but never really did know if it was so or not.