Some Justice to ZDP 189

[Frozy]

Hi all, I like the Caly 3.5 in VG-10 and was sitting on the fence about getting the Caly 3.5 in ZDP 189 for months because I was afraid how brittle this steel can be. I have read numerous posts from different forums, and most people commented that ZDP189 is really very brittle and difficult to sharpen.

However, I was unable to resist the carbon fiber handle, so I went ahead to purchase the Caly 3.5 CF and WOW, this knife is such a beauty! However I shall go straight to the point- While sharpening the knife, i accidently hit the edge against the top of the Sharpmaker's ceramic rod that half an inch of the factory edge became dull. Well, it did take about 30mins to get the knife back into shaving sharpness using the medium grit stones.. but there was not even a chip on the edge of the knife.

With less amount of time and effort, CPM S30V gets much sharper faster, but i have chipped the edge of my Paramilitary 2 and Chokwe before in the same situation. Perhaps there are other factors as to why the those knives in CPM S30V chipped while the ZDP189 didn't, but my story here is to assure you people out there who are unwilling to try ZDP189 steel because of the horror stories related to it.

.. And a Stretch 2 ZDP189 is on the way into my mailbox soon too!

 

[senoBDEC]

Congrats, two of my favorite models in my 2nd most favorite "higher-end" steels.

ZDP-189 is best handled with diamond-coated plates of varying grits, then I find it takes about the same amount of time as any other steel. However for a basic user it's hard to beat VG-10...

 

[3rdGenRigger]

If you don't let it get really dull between sharpenings it doesn't take much to maintain it on a SharpMaker, even with just the medium and fine stones...you just have to touch it up frequently, but it sure holds an edge for a long time so it's not that big of a deal to me anyways...I only have the medium and fine stones.

 

[singularity35]

If you don't let it get really dull between sharpenings it doesn't take much to maintain it on a SharpMaker, even with just the medium and fine stones...you just have to touch it up frequently, but it sure holds an edge for a long time so it's not that big of a deal to me anyways...I only have the medium and fine stones.

What's the point then if you still have to resharpen often? Don't we get the steel for the edge retention? If I can't cut a lot of cardboard because I can't make it sharp again, there would be no point.

 

[3rdGenRigger]

You still have to resharpen less often than most other steels. I sharpen my knives when they won't easily cut newsprint or receipt paper (It's thin so it'll tear easily of there's edge deformation or chipping), and it takes ZDP-189 longer to wear to this point than say S30V or VG-10 for example. I sharpen any/all of my knives when they won't easily cut thin paper, but I need to do the ZDP-189 less often than most others (K390 is phenomenal in this aspect...truly exceptional)...if I let it get REALLY dull I'd want diamond stones do get it close to optimal, but I don't let my knives get that dull on principle anyways so it's a moot point for me (It'll still cut more cardboard before needing a resharpening than S30V...it's just easier to catch it early because it's so hard)...I need to sharpen less often with it so I call it a marginal victory.

 

[singularity35]

You still have to resharpen less often than most other steels. I sharpen my knives when they won't easily cut newsprint or receipt paper (It's thin so it'll tear easily of there's edge deformation or chipping), and it takes ZDP-189 longer to wear to this point than say S30V or VG-10 for example. I sharpen any/all of my knives when they won't easily cut thin paper, but I need to do the ZDP-189 less often than most others (K390 is phenomenal in this aspect...truly exceptional)...if I let it get REALLY dull I'd want diamond stones do get it close to optimal, but I don't let my knives get that dull on principle anyways so it's a moot point for me (It'll still cut more cardboard before needing a resharpening than S30V...it's just easier to catch it early because it's so hard)...I need to sharpen less often with it so I call it a marginal victory.

So if you need to cut a large enough quantity of material that will really dull your knife and you don't have anything except your ZDP knife, will you not use your ZDP knife?

I guess what I'm trying to say is if that you really dull your knife and you struggle to get it sharp from really dull, then maybe you should find an easier to sharpen steel.

Also if you don't let your knives dull on principle, then again, what's the point of using a steel that won't shine unless you really cut a lot in one session?

If your ZDP knife only gets to the point of not being able to cut newsprint, then wouldn't an easier to sharpen steel be more suitable? If in one session you cut enough that your knife won't cut newsprint easily, do you then stop cutting to resharpen?

 

[3rdGenRigger]

So if you need to cut a large enough quantity of material that will really dull your knife and you don't have anything except your ZDP knife, will you not use your ZDP knife?

I guess what I'm trying to say is if that you really dull your knife and you struggle to get it sharp from really dull, then maybe you should find an easier to sharpen steel.

Also if you don't let your knives dull on principle, then again, what's the point of using a steel that won't shine unless you really cut a lot in one session?

If your ZDP knife only gets to the point of not being able to cut newsprint, then wouldn't an easier to sharpen steel be more suitable? If in one session you cut enough that your knife won't cut newsprint easily, do you then stop cutting to resharpen?

I'll start by saying that your use may vary from mine so you may not be looking for the same thing in a knife as I do...as for your four points (From my usage perspective);

1) Of course I would use it, but if I'm expecting to cut that much material I'll typically bring a second knife along anyways.

2) I don't find it a struggle to sharpen...it just takes longer, but it doesn't dull as fast as lots of other steels which negates the need for an "Easy" to sharpen steel that won't stay sharp as long in the first place.

3) It's not that I don't let them get dull, but if I use one and it gets dull I'll take 5 minutes to touch up the edge on the SharpMaker when I get home (Typically while catching up on the news or watching TV)...the principle behind me doing this is that I know it will be sharp when I decide to carry that knife again...it's more of a convenience issue so that I can take whatever knife I feel that I'll get the most use out of on that day without having to sharpen it that morning.

4) If I'm not using it at home (And as such don't have a way to sharpen it) and it's at the point of not being able to cut newsprint or receipt paper I will keep using it to get the job done knowing that it will take me 20 minutes instead of 5-10 to get it back to where it will push cut newsprint. However, in one session of cutting/day of work/whatever it will still take longer for it to dull than something like VG10 for example, so it's less likely to become dull in the first place.

 

[singularity35]

I'll start by saying that your use may vary from mine so you may not be looking for the same thing in a knife as I do...as for your four points (From my usage perspective);

1) Of course I would use it, but if I'm expecting to cut that much material I'll typically bring a second knife along anyways.

2) I don't find it a struggle to sharpen...it just takes longer, but it doesn't dull as fast as lots of other steels which negates the need for an "Easy" to sharpen steel that won't stay sharp as long in the first place.

3) It's not that I don't let them get dull, but if I use one and it gets dull I'll take 5 minutes to touch up the edge on the SharpMaker when I get home (Typically while catching up on the news or watching TV)...the principle behind me doing this is that I know it will be sharp when I decide to carry that knife again...it's more of a convenience issue so that I can take whatever knife I feel that I'll get the most use out of on that day without having to sharpen it that morning.

4) If I'm not using it at home (And as such don't have a way to sharpen it) and it's at the point of not being able to cut newsprint or receipt paper I will keep using it to get the job done knowing that it will take me 20 minutes instead of 5-10 to get it back to where it will push cut newsprint. However, in one session of cutting/day of work/whatever it will still take longer for it to dull than something like VG10 for example, so it's less likely to become dull in the first place.

So isn't it silly to advise a user to "don't let your knife get dull"? Of course being the knife and sharpness nuts we are, we will inevitably touch up our knives(in fact, it would be impossible for us to refrain from doing so). Might as well tell the user to "just don't use your knife".

My issue really is with that advise. I'm all for the extreme edge holding steels BUT only if a user has no trouble getting it back sharp.

If a user may have difficulty with getting a ZDP knife back to acceptable sharpness, then maybe it's not for him.

 

[3rdGenRigger]

I wouldn't say that sharpening for longer is difficult, because it gets back to the same degree of sharpness...it just takes longer, but it wears for longer so it's a moot point to me. And, as a knife enthusiast, I consider a knife dull when it won't slice newsprint, but the term "Dull" can be interpreted different ways. I've had a knife I considered "Dull" absolutely shock someone (It wouldn't slice newsprint so "Dull" to me) because it would slice normal printer paper...they thought it was the sharpest thing ever and their eyes almost jumped out of the front of their head, but to a non-knife person who's kitchen knives are about as sharp as a butter knife it might seem like an exceptionally sharp knife. Again, it takes longer to wear AND to sharpen so they cancel each other out in my mind...more time spent using between sharpenings, and longer sharpenings as a result, but that's known going in. I'd only consider it "Difficult" if there was something preventing a user from being able to sharpen it at all back to factory. My Caly 3.5 is sharper than it was from the factory, and will easily push cut newsprint.

The biggest thing for me is that it's more likely to be sharp at the end of a day of use than a knife with lower edge retention will be (And therefore more useful), and as it's sharper when I get home, that also balances out the sharpening time too because it's going to be closer to optimal than a knife with lower edge retention.

I'll use an analogy. I don't consider a 60 minute drive any more difficult than a 20 minute drive...just takes longer (Assuming similar conditions...can't compare an off road excursion at Moab to be the same as driving on a deserted highway...from knife usage perspective that would be equivalent to comparing one knife's ability to cut paper to another's ability to cut rocks in half).

 

[singularity35]

I think it's just splitting hairs when you say something that takes longer to do is not harder to do than a chore that requires less time. More effort to do, more trouble to accomplish.

Besides, I'm basically talking about your advise to the OP about "don't let your knives get dull".

I wouldn't say that sharpening for longer is difficult, because it gets back to the same degree of sharpness...it just takes longer, but it wears for longer so it's a moot point to me. And, as a knife enthusiast, I consider a knife dull when it won't slice newsprint, but the term "Dull" can be interpreted different ways. I've had a knife I considered "Dull" absolutely shock someone (It wouldn't slice newsprint so "Dull" to me) because it would slice normal printer paper...they thought it was the sharpest thing ever and their eyes almost jumped out of the front of their head, but to a non-knife person who's kitchen knives are about as sharp as a butter knife it might seem like an exceptionally sharp knife. Again, it takes longer to wear AND to sharpen so they cancel each other out in my mind...more time spent using between sharpenings, and longer sharpenings as a result, but that's known going in. I'd only consider it "Difficult" if there was something preventing a user from being able to sharpen it at all back to factory. My Caly 3.5 is sharper than it was from the factory, and will easily push cut newsprint.

The biggest thing for me is that it's more likely to be sharp at the end of a day of use than a knife with lower edge retention will be (And therefore more useful), and as it's sharper when I get home, that also balances out the sharpening time too because it's going to be closer to optimal than a knife with lower edge retention.

I'll use an analogy. I don't consider a 60 minute drive any more difficult than a 20 minute drive...just takes longer (Assuming similar conditions...can't compare an off road excursion at Moab to be the same as driving on a deserted highway...from knife usage perspective that would be equivalent to comparing one knife's ability to cut paper to another's ability to cut rocks in half).

 

[hank_rearden]

i still find it harder to sharpen s30v to hair-splitting sharpness than zdp, even though zdp takes longer.

 

[3rdGenRigger]

I think it's just splitting hairs when you say something that takes longer to do is not harder to do than a chore that requires less time. More effort to do, more trouble to accomplish.

Besides, I'm basically talking about your advise to the OP about "don't let your knives get dull".

To be fair I said it helps to not let it get "Really dull" between sharpenings...at that point forget slicing printer paper with no tears. By that I mean it won't slice thin cardboard like a business card without tearing, which means it's "Really dull", and will take a long time to sharpen, and even then it won't take forever. And it takes a lot of use to get to that point, and you can use it more to get to that point anyways. I like to sharpen my knives while watching TV or a movie, or even while listening to music (I like to be doing something with my hands constantly), so longer sharpening times aren't a large consideration for me, especially as they're more seldom required with a steel like ZDP-189. Don't even get me started on K390...it's going to be AGES before I have to sharpen my Mule...it has a microbevel on it and will still push cut receipt paper after cutting through rigid black plastic hoses and lots of cardboard...I've gotten so much use out of it that I won't care if it takes me an hour to resharpen it to where it is now, and I doubt it will, and it's showing no signs of needing it anyways.

i still find it harder to sharpen s30v to hair-splitting sharpness than zdp, even though zdp takes longer.

I also find I can get a more hair-splitting edge on it than S30V, but my favourite steel for getting a scary sharp edge is SuperBlue...that stuff when well sharpened really does become "Silly sharp".

 

[singularity35]

To be fair I said it helps to not let it get "Really dull" between sharpenings...at that point forget slicing printer paper with no tears. By that I mean it won't slice thin cardboard like a business card without tearing, which means it's "Really dull", and will take a long time to sharpen, and even then it won't take forever. And it takes a lot of use to get to that point, and you can use it more to get to that point anyways. I like to sharpen my knives while watching TV or a movie, or even while listening to music (I like to be doing something with my hands constantly), so longer sharpening times aren't a large consideration for me, especially as they're more seldom required with a steel like ZDP-189. Don't even get me started on K390...it's going to be AGES before I have to sharpen my Mule...it has a microbevel on it and will still push cut receipt paper after cutting through rigid black plastic hoses and lots of cardboard...I've gotten so much use out of it that I won't care if it takes me an hour to resharpen it to where it is now, and I doubt it will, and it's showing no signs of needing it anyways.



I also find I can get a more hair-splitting edge on it than S30V, but my favourite steel for getting a scary sharp edge is SuperBlue...that stuff when well sharpened really does become "Silly sharp".

That's quite a lot of verbal gymnastics.

It's simple really. If your use is not enough to "don't get your knife dull between sharpenings", then there's really no point. Unless of course, you just WANT it, in which case, there's no need for verbal gymnastics to justify your choice. But if we talk about needing it just because it takes longer than S30V of whatnot to get to the point of not cutting printer paper well, but in your use it really doesn't get to that point, there's really no advantage to using a wear resistant steel.

Dulling is not linear. Most steels dull to a working edge in around the same amount of use. It's that working edge that will last for a long time.

I'm not sure you've tried to bring back an edge on a ZDP knife that's really dull, with a sharpmaker, but pleasant is not the word I'd use to describe it.

 

[3rdGenRigger]

I have taken a ZDP knife back from a working edge to newsprint push cutting...and it did take a long time, but I was watching a long documentary when I did it so it didn't bother me that much. If I needed to sharpen one again that's even more dull than a working edge I'd definitely invest in a set of diamond rods for the SharpMaker to speed up the process. And we'll have to disagree on usage then because I'm done arguing...I was merely stating my observations from my personal uses, which obviously differ from yours. I like the edge holding properties of ZDP-189 over VG10, but that's just me. If you're all about ease of sharpening you should really be more interested in SuperBlue than ZDP to begin with.

 

[singularity35]

I have taken a ZDP knife back from a working edge to newsprint push cutting...and it did take a long time, but I was watching a long documentary when I did it so it didn't bother me that much. If I needed to sharpen one again that's even more dull than a working edge I'd definitely invest in a set of diamond rods for the SharpMaker to speed up the process. And we'll have to disagree on usage then because I'm done arguing...I was merely stating my observations from my personal uses, which obviously differ from yours. I like the edge holding properties of ZDP-189 over VG10, but that's just me. If you're all about ease of sharpening you should really be more interested in SuperBlue than ZDP to begin with.

I'm not about ease of sharpening, I'm about practicalities. I do have both superblue and ZDP knives BTW.

What you are trying to do is to justify to yourself your need for ZDP when the reality actually is that you just want it, and that's fine. The problem is that you really don't have the tools to deal with it if you really use it as intended(which means extended cutting sessions). I see that you are admitting that you've only dealt with a working edge once which means that you don't cut much with it in one session. You just have to admit to yourself that you're not using the steel to it's potential because if you do, it takes you an inordinate amount of time to maintain your tool.

If you can't use the steel as intended, because you either don't have the tools, or the skill to get it sharp in a reasonable amount of time(from working edge to sharp in one documentary is a ridiculous amount of time if you use a knife enough to dull it often), then you are just playing with it and not really needing the qualities of the steel.

I do carry mostly an M390 military or a 20CP para and I regularly get them dull enough to tear cardboard, takes me around 5-10 minutes to bring the edge back using DMT's or SiC on the EP. BTW, my ZDP endura is at around 11-12 dps so it's pretty easy to microbevel back to sharp at 18 dps. So as you say, in a way, I'm all about easy to sharpen because if it took me one full length documentary to sharpen, I'd probably stop using them.

 

[Cynic2701]

I like ZDP-189 quite a bit. The harder heat treatment lends it towards thinner bevels. With the right equipment it doesn't take long to re-profile, and the thinness of the bevels makes it easy to touch up:

The Caly 3.5 is a very good EDC. I prefer the ZDP-189 version over the VG-10 version, as it can take and hold a more acute edge.

Between the Caly 3 and the 3.5 I think that the 3.5 wins hands down. I do still keep my CF/ZDP Caly 3 because it has a smaller, more people friendly blade, and because my Dad bought it for me.

Here's a few pics of my 3.5 that I've taken down to 20 degrees inclusive:

 

[3rdGenRigger]

That's with only brown SharpMaker rods though, and I do intend to buy some diamond rods for my SharpMaker to more easily facilitate sharpening of all my high wear knives. I CAN justify it as is though because in a day of work for ME, cutting rope/cardboard/plastic/vinyl and/or rubber tape/fiberglass it won't get dull to the point where it would be prohibitive to get back to hair whittling...and because the coarsest grit stones I have are the medium grit SharpMaker stones, that works for me. If I was to skin an Elk or a Moose (And was forced to choose just one knife), I wouldn't choose my Caly 3/3.5 or ZDP Delica...but that doesn't fall within my usage parameters and neither of the 3 knives would be optimal as far as size and geometry anyways. Everyone's usage parameters are different, which ultimately means there's no one single "One size fits all" answer for me to give you. I like ZDP on my knives because I don't have to sharpen them often...if it takes me 90 minutes to sharpen it on the brown stones because I needed to do some abusive cutting I didn't plan for, so be it. It would be a lot faster on diamond stones, but I've only had my Caly 3.5 get that dull once, and the ZDP Delica close to that once (That took me 50 minutes to get hair whittling). I don't mind though...if I was to do something really intensive I'd take my CruWear Millie and 204P Para2 (As well as one or two others if I deemed it necessary like my CruWear Manix or Schempp Tuff... Spydercos carry easily after all) and the ZDP would hold a working edge longer than the lot anyways. Forgive me for not feeling the "Hate" of ZDP-189, but I do like the steel. The one knife I use most often with it is my Caly 3.5, and it's more of a gentlemans/dress knife IMO, and it's main uses are opening packages, cutting rope, cutting up food at lunch, and cutting up cardboard boxes...nothing which typically will stress it to the point where after a day it will take me more than 5 minutes to touch it up to hair whittling. Would it be my first choice of knife to bring 400 feet up a cell tower with me? Probably not...I prefer my PM2, Chokwe, Military, OD Goddard, or SB Stretch for those tasks (And my Swick3 in Kydex sheath attached to my harness as backup). Up a tower, I'll mostly just have to cut electrical tape, after cutting open antenna boxes on the ground, and fiberglass straps and zip ties. Potentially rope too, but not typically on a job site as we bring and prep the rope we need before going to a job site. I've carried my Caly 3.5 at work, and though it's not my preference before any of the knives I listed above (For reasons other than the blade steel), it still performed well and never took me more than 10 minutes to resharpen because none of that classifies as "Abuse".



There's no "One size fits all" solution...I'd rather have my Caly 3.5 in said role than my Tenacious because the Tenacious would be dull (Not "Really" dull) before the day's end...the Tenacious makes a great beater knife because I have no qualms about cutting directly into metal with it...but I don't expect it to hold an edge, so it gets used for abusive cutting tasks, while the Caly 3.5 gets used for more conventional cutting, as do most of my knives...the Tenacious and my S30V PM2 are my beater knives and take the most edge damage as a result (When I know such things will happen, but I'm not afraid to use ANY of my Spydercos hard if/when I need to). If you're keen eyed you'll see which model I listed above is in the picture I linked...and I've sharpened it a number of times...it's had edge damage and did take less time than ZDP did to fix, but I still wouldn't have called the process "Easy" with only the brown rods). Everyone's uses may vary, as will everyone's sharpening equipment and personal abilities. I certainly don't see the need to be afraid of ZDP, and I'd gladly substitute most of my VG10 blades for ZDP-189 if I could because I like the steel, but that's MY opinion and I'm by no means telling you yours should be the same...just that it's my opinion. I absolutely respect and encourage you to disagree with me if that's your true opinion.

"I do not agree with what you say, but I'll defend to the death your right to say it."

 

[ToxicBot11]

This is why I like CruWear, I can't say the edge retention is better than S30V, but Wow is it easy to sharpen. I can normally get my CruWear Millie from will barely will cut printing paper to cuts printing paper like a razor in 10 strokes or less on the brown rods of the SM.

Its also very tough, I've cut staples, twist ties etc. that would have chipped other steels.

 

[Evany]

I have a ZDP 189 Caly 3.5 and I really enjoy it. I keep it super sharp and use it relatively lightly most of the time, but I know it will be all there if I need to do some tough cutting. Mostly I carry it when a larger handled knife would be awkward or inappropriate, since it just about disappears in the pocket.

 

[goodeyesniper]

My issue really is with that advise. I'm all for the extreme edge holding steels BUT only if a user has no trouble getting it back sharp.

If a user may have difficulty with getting a ZDP knife back to acceptable sharpness, then maybe it's not for him.

Yup. It's for this reason I am of the firm opinion that something like 8cr is actually a steel much better suited to the average person than ZDP189, s30v, m390, etc... Ease of grindability and sharpenability in the long run, especially using easy to find cheap methods, far outweigh some edge holding if you never want to spend the time sharpening it up. "ease" refers not just to tools needed and time required, but skill required, too. Most people don't want to devote countless hours into unraveling the finer details of sharpening. For instance, my 1095 GEC came with a decently thin edge, but obtuse bevel (45 degrees or more, easily) Spending just a couple minutes on my shapton 1000 grit stone trying to sharpen closer to a 25 degree inclusive angle, and the entire edge was nearly dropped down to an apex at the new, low angle. But putting my S30V or CPM M4 on that stone and trying to thin out the edge didn't make a dent at twice that amount of time.

edit to add: back on the topic of ZDP, I think it's fragility is often very exaggerated by people simply because they've heard it on forums enough. Which is especially funny when people talk about the toughness of s35vn or Elmax, because they've heard THAT mentioned enough. When these are all high carbide steels, not tough by a long shot. But not glass, either.