Some questions about Japanese kitchen knives

[Crayola]

Lately I've been making a bunch of kitchen knives, and I also am ready to have a kogatana heat treated. For those who don't know, a kogatana is a small, single beveled knife that looks like the front edge of an americanized tanto. Really, they are the same thing as a marking knife.

Man, I sure don't know how to get to the point! Anyways, I decided that soon I'd like to combine the two styles, and make some Japanese kitchen knives! Trouble is, I've never seen any in person so I need a bit oh help.

It seems that there are 3 main blades: a Deba used for cutting meats and fish and such, a long slicer, and a Usuba hocho, wich is a vegetable knife. I know that the Deba knife is left thicker since ti cuts through fish bones and stuff. And the vegetable knife is made to be very thin for super slicing. SO here's my questions:

1) How thick is the steel for the Deba and Usuba knives? Is the Deba made from thicker stock?

2) What does the tang on these knives look like? I've seen several fighting blade tangs, but nevera kitchen knife tang!

3) How wide are the Deba and Usuba knives?

Thanks everyone!

 

[ZENGHOST]

In my experience the Deba is thicker than the Usuba. I'm not at home right now so I can't go measure it--I think it's a 1/16" thickness compared to my 1/8" thick Henckels Chef's knife. The one you didn't mention is the Santoku which I prefer over the Deba (it seems more or less like a thinner Deba knife). I think the Deba is also usually single beveled as well, which is another reason I never really liked it. I think the Debas that I have seen were actually a little thicker than my Chef's knife but can't be too sure about that--I'll check that out when I get home as well and maybe add some pics.

edited to add: As per the tangs--my Usuba is full tang, but then again it's a Messermeister and not a Japanese made knife. My Deba and my Santoku were both not full tang but don't really know what the tang looked like.

 

[ZENGHOST]

Here's a couple pics of my deba. It's 1/8" thick.

 

[ZENGHOST]

Other side...and it's about 1.75" wide (blade to spine) at its widest point (nearest the handle).

 

[Crayola]

Thanks for the pics Zen!

Is the edge on the Deba a "gero grind"? Is it a half moran to give strength for chopping through fish bones?

So your Deba is 1/8" thick. Is that how thick your veggie knife is too, or is that one thinner?

THANKS AGAIN!

 

[John Chong]

Crayola...

There is an incredible variety of Japanese kitchen knives (just like Western ones). The popular 3 traditional ones are:

1. yanagi-ba - for slicing sashimi (fish meat)
2. deba - for deboning fish and heavier duty chopping
3. usuba - for vegetables

The traditional grind is chisel edged or zero grind as you called it.

Zenghost... only 1/8" for the deba? That's a little thin. They're normally about 5-6mm. Even the usuba is about 3-4mm at the spine.

The tang is a rat-tail type.

Anyway, some of the knives have evolved more to the western double edged grind, e.g. the santoku or the nakiri (a variant of the usuba).

If you have more questions Crayola ask away.

 

[ZENGHOST]

Originally posted by John Chong
Zenghost... only 1/8" for the deba? That's a little thin. They're normally about 5-6mm. Even the usuba is about 3-4mm at the spine.

Yeah, I kinda thought so too but wasn't sure since this is really the only deba that I've handled. But then again, if it was thicker I probably wouldn't have bought it since I like my knives on the thin side.

Cray, my Usuba is 1/16" thick. Could you elaborate on the zero grind concept? I'm pretty sure I know what it is, but want to make sure.

Here's a comparison between the spines on my Usuba (left) and my Deba (right).

 

[Crayola]

John...

OH BOY! Another forumite who I can bug with endless questions about knives! I'll definitely have a few more questions for you. I'll post them later on this thread.

Zen, yet another great pic! Thanks man.

As far as a zero grind, that means that there is no secondary edge bevel. I'll take the primary grind right down to the edge. Essentially, that makes the primary grind the edge. At least I'll grind way down and put a secondary bevel on the ground side only. But I'd like to get away with as little secondary bevel as possible. That should make a pretty amazing slicer. The two kiridashi kogatana (look like marking knives) I am making will be zero grinds. I just cleaned them up yesterday to get them ready for heat treat and I kinda stopped and admired them for a bit. Single sided grinds and zero grinds are quite new to me!

 

[ZENGHOST]

Originally posted by Crayola
John...

OH BOY! Another forumite who I can bug with endless questions about knives! I'll definitely have a few more questions for you. I'll post them later on this thread.

Yeah, John seems to know a helluva lot more about the Japanese knives than I do so you may want to pay more attention to his responses...

Zen, yet another great pic! Thanks man.

No prob--let me know if you want to see any other pics or angles or anything.

As far as a zero grind, that means that there is no secondary edge bevel. I'll take the primary grind right down to the edge. Essentially, that makes the primary grind the edge. At least I'll grind way down and put a secondary bevel on the ground side only. But I'd like to get away with as little secondary bevel as possible. That should make a pretty amazing slicer.

Okay, that's what I thought (whatta you know...I actually got something right for a change...). Then my Deba does not have a zero grind--there is a secondary bevel.

The two kiridashi kogatana (look like marking knives) I am making will be zero grinds. I just cleaned them up yesterday to get them ready for heat treat and I kinda stopped and admired them for a bit. Single sided grinds and zero grinds are quite new to me!

I believe this is similar to the kiridashi/marking knife that you mentioned. My friend picked this up for me while in Japan. It's a laminated blade and this one has a zero grind. I think this one appears in some catalogs that I've seen--it's a cool knife.

 

[ZENGHOST]

And these are some marking knives off of the Garrett Wade site that I've been meaning to get for quite some time but never got around to.

 

[John Chong]

Zen...

Thanks for the top-down pix. Do you have a side pic for the usuba?

The debas are usually thicker to fit their role as a heavy duty chopper (kinda like a cleaver). They are also done a little softer (maybe 55-56 RC) so that the edge handles the task without chipping.

Well, I'm no great expert on Japanese cooking knives, just that I like them a lot.

 

[shappa]

Go to www.japanesecutlery.com and look around. Request a catalog. It's a beaut.

 

[ZENGHOST]

Originally posted by John Chong
Zen...

Thanks for the top-down pix. Do you have a side pic for the usuba?

Here you go...~6 9/16" blade length, 1/16" thick, and 1 7/8" wide, flat ground Messermeister Usuba

 

[John Chong]

Thanks for the pic Zen.

That looks more like a nakiri. Japanese terminology is confusing (especially to non-speakers like me), but here's what I can gather:

The nakiri and usuba are squared shaped knives meant for cutting vegetables very finely. To be more precise, the shape is an Edogata (east Japan) or Kanto style. The west Japan style (Kamagata) or Kansai style of usuba ends somewhat like a sheepsfoot or wharncliffe. Note: I've not seen a kamagata style nakiri, only a kamagata usuba.

Generally the usuba signifies a chisel edged knife (more traditional) and the spine is quite thick (3-4mm). The nakiri is double edged and thinner (1.5-2mm). I believe the nakiri is a more modern variant and the construction spans both the traditional (i.e. rat tail tang into a magnolia wood handle with buffalo horn ferrule) and modern (i.e. full tang and riveted handles with or without bolsters). Whereas I've only ever seen the usuba in a traditional construction.

In general I see many site use the terms "nakiri" and "usuba" interchangeably. But I don't think they are synonymous (with the differences noted above).

My $0.02 today.

 

[iqcomp]

John in your opinion which is sharper or more efficient, the Usuba or the Nakiri?

Chris

 

[Crayola]

Hey Zen! Thanks for the pics again. I made my father a kiridashi kogatana for christmas. I'll see about posting a pic on the forum, but maybe I'll shoot you an e-mail and give you a pic. I wrapped the handle and everything! The wooden sheath I made wouldn't win ANY beauty contests, but it works.

 

[ExamonLyf]

Some great information guys.., thanks for the fun thread!


"Hunters seek what they [WANT].., Seekers hunt what they [NEED]"

 

[ZENGHOST]

Originally posted by Crayola
Hey Zen! Thanks for the pics again. I made my father a kiridashi kogatana for christmas. I'll see about posting a pic on the forum, but maybe I'll shoot you an e-mail and give you a pic. I wrapped the handle and everything! The wooden sheath I made wouldn't win ANY beauty contests, but it works.

Anytime, man--I'd love to see how it came out.

John--thanks for the clarification. It is difficult to keep track of terms when they start using them interchangeably.

 

[Sid Post]

If you like Japanese style kitchen knives, be sure to checkout Murray Carter's table next time you go to large knife show. I have a couple of his Muteki line and they are very nice knives in the kitchen. Considering Murray is an ABS Master Smith and what you can get a Muteki for (~$45 to ~$70), I think they are a steal, or is that steel