Somebody tell me about rapiers...

Triton

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Aug 8, 2000
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Ken, I'm looking to you specifically on this one but all comments are welcome. I recently acquired a rapier and parrying dagger in a swap. They were said to be Del Tin but I cannot find a makers mark on them. Here they are:

First does anyone know what they are?
dt-duelist2.jpg


I will have more questions once that is resolved.
 
Wow!
That's a very pretty set, Triton.

Unfortunately, I can't tell much about the hilt from the picture, it looks like it may be a four lobed pierced plate of some sort, but I'm not sure.

They really don't look like anything I've seen before. I've spent the last hour and a half combing the net for all my "usual sources" and I can't find anything even remotely similar.

So a few questions...

1. Can you take some better pictures of the hilt?
2. Is the pommel screwed on or peened?
3. Are there any markings at all on either the sword or the dagger?

I'll keep looking, becuase the picture is ringing a bell for me somewhere, I've seen that design before, I just can't for the life of me recall where.
 
Thanks, they actually look better then the pictures show. What appear to be gold handles there are actually wire wrapped handles that have alternating silver and gold wire. I have one other picture that I can post tonight, but it is not much better then this one I'm afraid. I can get some better ones but not until next week. I'll be sure to post them when I do. I did not find any maker's marks with my cursory inspection but I will look some more. The pommels appear to be screw on in some fashion although they have some sort of peening on the end that will not let them come off.

A couple of questions about usage. First off what is that little side ring on the parrying dagger for? It is kind of hard to see in the picture but there is one there. It does not seem like it would give much hand protection, is it just a fashion statment? Second, I know that rapiers are supposed to be mostly for thrusting rather then cutting but how should they handle when making a slashing motion? This one seems to be kind of blade heavy in that regard. It seems to track very well for the thrust though.
 
The little side ring is to protect your hand when the parried blade slides down the length of the dagger.

Proper grip for the parrying dagger is with that ring facing out towards your knuckles and your thumb on the flat of the "back face" of the blade.

Believe it or not, that little ring is worth it's weight in GOLD!
:D

I'll post more later, but I'm sick today and can't stand to be in front of the puter another minute or I'll :barf:
 
I wanted to add to the above post,
Placement of the thumb against the back flat of the dagger blade is very important to proper use of the dagger.
The thumb "braces" the blade and gives you a great deal of leverage when blocking a fast moving blade. If the thumb is not placed there, and a "hammer grip" is used instead, the opponent's rapier will often "blow through" your parry and you wind up "cut" despite having been in the right place at the right time.
(This is something you won't learn by fighting with foils and epees.) ;)

As to how the rapier feels in your hand, I suppose it does feel a little "odd" to you now.

A large part of the reason for this is the (relatively) extreme blade length. I'm guessing your blade measures somewhere between 38 and 42 inches or so. This is quite a bit longer than most swords you've handled.

The trick to dealing with it is to realize where your strength comes from, and from using proper grip.

The strength and speed in a rapier all comes from the wrist and fingers. Proper grip is with the forefinger (trigger finger for the gunnies in the crowd) through the opposite finger ring (sometimes mistakenly called the "Pas de ane") inside your hilt.

Your finger should loop over the quillion bar on the other side of the blade. (This is hard to describe in writing, sorry if I'm confusing you.)

Beginning duelists, until they develop the hand and finger strength required (it's muscles you don't normally use for anything else) will hook the first two fingers over the bar (imagine putting two fingers inside the trigger guard) for increased strength.

Many duelists, after they reach a certain point in their skills, will hook one finger over the bar on either side of the blade, but this has advantages and disadvantages, I personally prefer a single finger hold and brace the back of my thumb against the quillon bar in a more "saber-like" grip. This is not "technically correct" to the time period, but it serves me very well and imparts a great deal of power to my cuts and blocks.

I hope I've answered more questions than I've raised, but I hope you'll feel free to ask for clarification or expansion, I love talking about this stuff almost as much as I love doing it!
:D
 
Ah HA!
You posted the pic while I was writing.

The hilt is what I thought it was. A sort of "clover leaf" pierced plate guard.

This is a "take-off" on the Pappenheimer style of rapier, which had a single pierced plate on each side of the hilt. This is one of the pre-cursors to the full "cup hilt" rapier common from about 1640 onwards.

I'd say that this hilt style was probably made sometime between 1625 and 1640 or so, but that's just "best guess."

I've seen this very sword for sale someplace recently and it's driving me nuts trying to remember where.
I'll remember eventually. (If old age hasn't already set in!)

:rolleyes:
 
Thanks for the continuation Ken, actually what you are saying makes a lot of sense. I am playing with the parrying dagger right at the moment and I can see what you are saying about needing some extra strength there to keep someone from simply bashing through your parry. I have also noticed that when you hold your thumb that way more of your knuckles end up under the side ring which also makes sense. I actually discovered the bit about putting my index finger over the finger ring on accident. The blade just felt "off" until I did that.

You were also correct about the blade length. This sword is my longest single hand by a good six inches or so. Now that I am back from Toronto I will probably try some thrusts against light targest like cardboard boxes or something tomorrow. I'm not expecting great things since I have absolutely no training and the edges of this sword are rebated. However I am mostly interested in tracking and blade stiffness.

Someone over at netsword believes that this sword and dagger are from an early MRL and Del Tin effort. I have contacted Eddie Floyd who used to work for MRL in an attempt to find out if that is true. Unfortuantely the pics I sent him did not get to him but I am trying again.

So tell me Ken, can you cut with a rapier or are you mostly supposed to stick to thrusting. I am guessing the stuff that I saw in the "Three Musketeers" movie (Charlie Sheen, and those guys) was probably dead wrong. Also, do you prefer cup hilts or swept hilts and why?

Thanks Razor I kind of lucked into it. I was doing some work for the guy who posted the ad. I contacted him as soon as I saw the ad and we worked out a deal. There are a lot of good deals to be had in the world of swords right now. I think some people are hurting a little financially and are unloading parts of their collections.
 
Hi Triton,
Actually, I kind of suspected that I saw the handiwork of Eddie Floyd in there, but for some reason I can't find any links to his work anymore.

For practice thrusting, let me recommend hay bales as a good beginning medium. They're cheap, and have enough substance to them to show you when your thrust is offline. They also last a very long time as long as you don't hit the twine too often. :D

Cutting with a rapier is one of those questions that will get you different answers from different people.

Remember, there are a lot of people who insist that period rapiers weren't even sharpened except for a few inches near the tip. I personally disagree with this theory if for no other reason than soldiers through out history have typically disliked dull weapons. It may have started out dull, but I suspect the blades soon acquired a fairly keen edge. (Given the limits of the blade geometry.)

Given a sharp edge, some cutting is possible, but of course it's never going to be anything like what a nice XVIIIb will give you.
The trick to it is a "Draw cut." The idea being to hack into your opponent, then draw the blade through the flesh deepening the cut the same way you'd cut a steak. Obviously this would be one fluid movement and when employed against limbs would be very effective in doing what the FMA guys refer to as "Defanging the Snake."

Otherwise, the non-thrusting cuts were limited to "tip cuts" which would be something along the lines of the previously mentioned "Stromatzione."

The "Stramatzione" is a quick flicking cut using only the foible (first few inches) and usually aimed at the eyes or just above the eyes, the idea being to blind your opponent. Whether you got the eyes themselves or merely inflicted a head wound that would bleed into the eyes, Some level of the desired effect was acheived. There were even specially designed rapier blades with a rather bulbous leaf shaped point that was intended to provide extra cutting power to the technique.

Obviously the tip cutting principle would be very distracting when struck anywhere on the face, and such cuts to the neck could conceivably be lethal or at the very least, extremely un-nerving to the recipient.

These type of blows were often used in duels which were not "To The Death" but "To First Blood" and one desired only to "pink" his opponent rather than inflict serious injury or death.

Either way, the only reasonable hope of a rapid kill was by means of the thrust, and this was how the period Masters taught. Weaken or disable with cuts, kill with the thrust.

I personally prefer Swept Hilts and "Shell" type hilts. This includes Pappenheimers and your particular sword as well. There are a lot of reasons for this and none of them mean that cup hilts are "bad" in any way.

Cup hilts are a bit too late in history for my chosen period of study. (Specifically about 1550 to 1634 A.D.) They did not appear on the scene until (earliest known specimens) about 1640 or so. So when you see those Movie Musketeers sporting Cup hilt rapiers, realize that it is an anachronism akin to seeing a Colt 1873 Peacemaker .45 in a U.S.Civil War* movie. (The character D'Artagnan began his travels with the Musketeers in 1625.):D

I have fairly large hands and I find that many cup hilts are a bit too cramped and don't allow the flexibility of grip that is required for true versatility with the rapier.

This, almost above anything else needs to be stressed about the rapier. Your grip on the sword is a <b>very</b> fluid thing. You must be able to roll, tilt, slide and otherwise move the grip around in hand to be able to properly realize the potential of the sword.

The Pommel is also very important to proper technique. When holding the blade at extention, the hand should be relaxed with fingers lightly curled, but not squeezing the grip. (Think "cradle") The pommel should rest against the bottom of your forearm. To understand the reason for this, think of your wrist as a fulcrum. By simply "popping" your wrist down as you flick your fingers upward, you get a surprisingly fast movement in the tip of the blade. This is where much of the rapier's speed comes from. Speed comes from the fingers and wrist. Power comes from the shoulder and elbow.

BTW, from a historic point of view the Disney "Three Musketeers (Sheen, Sutherland etc.) was horrible. The 1970's MGM production with Michael York and company was incredibly well researched and executed.



*Correctly known as "The War of Northern Aggression." After all, I'm an Arkansasan! ;)
 
Hey Ken,

It looks like this particular mystery is solved. I got email and a link back from Samara (Eddie's wife) today here is the link: http://www.swordplayalliance.com/Swordgallery/rap2.html and the sword pictured looks pretty much dead on to me. Apparently Eddie disigned this sword after pictures of an antique he found in a book. The design seems to be his favorite and the one he still uses when teaching. The set I have had its blades made by Del Tin and the hilt and guard components were made by MRL in the pre-Windlass days. I am very relieved to know all this to say the least. It looks like I really did make out as good as I thought.

The hay bales are a good idea and are readily available I will have to try it out. I think aesthetically I prefer the look of a swept hilt to that of a cup hilt although I must say this sort of pre-cup hilt that I have here is growing on me. One day I will own that writhen rapier that A&A is making. Have you seen it and what do you think of the looks of it?

I figured that about the Disney movie although I will say that I did enjoy it.

I wish I lived a little closer to you Ken so I could see what you meant about the description of how to hold the sword. Having your grip slide around like that seems sort of odd, but again I should stress that I know nothing. It seems likd if you are holding it so loosely you might be easily disarmed.

Of course it was the War of Northern Agression. Around here we mostly just call it The War. (pronounced "The wah") You mean those damnyankees (a subspecies of the human race :) ) call it something else?
 
I <b>KNEW</b> I'd seen it somewhere before! Thanks for letting me know. I do have real problems with the date they ascribe to the hilt style though. 1700 just doesn't seem likely to me. It's such an obvious take-off of the much earlier pierced plate hilts (ala' Pappenheimer and some swept hilts) that it would have to have been a very odd looking sword for it's day. I'd still say it looks more like it belongs in the 1630-1640 time frame. Maybe I'm just biased though. I like it, so I want it to be in "my" time period. :D

Sounds to me like you've got an excellent hilt, and blades don't come much better than Del Tin, regardless of how much money you spend. I'm truly envious.

You're going to have a lot of trouble getting used to the grip, I'll guarantee that!
LOL
Everything you've learned about how to hold a sword is going to run counter to what you need to do with a rapier and I wish I could spend some "face time" with you to show you. Bear in mind though, that it is the index finger (and possibly the second finger while you're starting out) that retains the sword. Everything else is merely meant to guide the tip into it's target.
 
That was the cool thing about it, no money actually changed hands... just a couple of scabbards headed for California. Rapiers haven't been my thing (until now) but how could I pass that up. I found myself over at the Arms and Armor site last night drooling not over the bohemien broadsword or the Black Prince but the Writhen and Italian rapiers. I think I've caught some kind of bug...
 
Argh!
My bookmark for Arms and Armor no longer works. It loads a blank page. (very odd)
You've got my curiousity fired up, can you post their link for me please?
 
Ken,

Strange, my link did the same thing. I searched and got to the "same place" and it just worked...curious indeed.

http://www.armor.com/

BTW thanks for all your comments (everyones actually) and suggestions in this forum. I have learned rather a lot lurking over here and it is my first stop after the Emerson forum.

Now if I could just afford any of this:D
Stay safe - Gordon
 
Thanks Gordon, that worked!
(Internet, go figure.)

My tastes run more to the Italian and French rapiers but DANG those guys are proud of their swords. I'll admit I'd have a hard time spending that much money on a rapier then take it out every week to bash it against someone else's 250 dollar sword.

I like to think that my taste in swords is similar to that of the serious duelist of the 1600s. A casual nod to fashion, but otherwise concerned only with performance and durability.

I prefer a large ball, barrel, or scent stopper pommel as these have much more leverage and better balance than some of the smaller and more decorative pommels used both today and "in period."

I also prefer compound hilts with a great deal of protection for the hands. Multiple rings at the least, pierced plate prefered, and at least two branches on the knuckle bow.

Even with all that and a good pair of gauntlets, you're going to gather the occasional scar on the back of your hand, it just goes with the territory.
:D
 
Hey Ken,

I see someone beat me to it. Yes, I like that Italian beauty myself but I think I still like the Writhen better. Strange because I normally don't go in for fancy blades.

I know their prices are scary, (sale on now though) but I don't really think that there is any other production sword maker in the same league with them. You get what you pay for, or at least that is what I keep telling myself as I save my pennies.
 
<b>NOTE: Before I say anything at all, please bear in mind that I have not handled any of Arms and Armor's swords so my comments are not in any way intended as a slur against their swords.</b>


I don't know if it's so much a case of "You get what you pay for." as it's a case of "You don't get it unless you pay for it."

(Dizzy yet?)

What I'm trying to say is this.
(all prices rounded for easy visualization. They're close but not TOO close!)
100 dollar POS wall hanger
200 dollar Hanwei rapier
300 dollar Del Tin rapier
600 dollar A&A rapier

Okay.
Is the Windlass twice as much sword as the POS?
Yes.

Is the Del Tin half again as much sword as the Hanwei?
<b>Definitely</b> yes! (More like twice the sword!)

Is the A&A twice as much sword as the Del Tin?
Ehhhhh, I'm skeptical.

Not having seen an A&A, I honestly can't say one way or the other, but I <b>suspect</b> that this is a great example of "The Law of Diminishing Returns."

That is, after a certain point, the amount of improvement realized isn't proportionate to the amount of money you have to pay to get it. Sure, if you've got the money to spare, it might well be worth it but to us po' budget minded folks, it might not be reasonable.

Yes, someday I'd love to have a 100% purely hand made custom Rapier. Would I take it to weekly dueling sessions?
EEEEEEEEEEK! (Sorry, just thinking about it makes me want to scream like a little girl!)

I'll say this though.
If the A&A swords are REALLY that much better than a Del Tin. I'll start saving my pennies to buy one, and after I buy it, I'll use it.

But it's going to have to be something pretty special. It's going to have to be measurably more durable than a Del Tin, it's going to have to be better balanced, it's going to have to be significantly faster in the hand, and it's going to have to stand up to a lot of serious hard use.

What is "a lot of serious hard use?"
I've got a Hanwei Pappenheimer that's fought better than 300 duels so far and is still going strong. I'm going to be expecting a lot more from a 600 dollar rapier. ;)

Because if I spend 600 dollars on a sword that doesn't hold up, I'm going to whine, kick, cry, sulk, and generally make a nuisance of myself until the COWS come home!
:D
 
Hey Ken,

I guess I should preface this by saying that I have never seen an A&A rapier either.

I think you have some good points there. You may very well be right, I do not know myself that a A&A sword from a purely durability standpoint is twice the sword that a Del Tin is. However from an aesthetic and historical standpoint it probably is twice the sword especially when you get to something like the writhen rapier. All of A&A's stuff is built from specifications taken from historical examples. I own one A&A sword and it absolutely stunning in fit and finish. I believe that A&A also guarantees their stuff against breakage from all normal use. You might want to check with them and find out what their definition of "normal use" is but if you fall within their perameters then it might well be that you would only have to buy one sword for the rest of your life...
 
That's very true too Triton. I didn't consider the lifetime warranty.
To be honest, I have a problem with "Lifetime Warranties."

I feel guilty using them!:o

If a sword breaks because of a defect, I don't have any problem returning it, but if I just plain wore it out through three or four years of hard use, then I would feel a little hesitant to hold them to such a warranty. I'm sure the company would happily stand behind their guarantee, but I guess it's just a personal "glitch" of mine, and if it were a 600 dollar sword, I just might be able to over-ride that glitch! ;)

There was a thread in General not too long ago asking "Have you ever worn out a knife?" I don't really recall ever wearing one out. I've broken a few, but just plain wearing out? No, I don't think so, but I sure have worn out a few swords! :D
 
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