Something cooking at Hattori Seki

[KenHash]

As most Cold Steel fans know, Ichiro Hattori made the San Mai III Tantos from circa1993 to 2015/2016. After which CS went to Taiwan manufacture.
I recently learned that Mr Hattori is planning to introduce his own line of Tantos. Don't have much details, only photos of shark/ray skin
being applied to the handle. But the components I see seem to ring a familiar bell. Shark skin on the Tsuka (handle) and the slot in tje pommel
indicate that it will be wrapped with Tsuka-Ito, as the old Imperial Tanto was. We'll see what the final outcome turns out to be.

Cold Steel VG1 San Mai III 2007-2015.

Above: Vintage Imperial Tanto.
Below: From the Hattori factory Oct 2021:

jlauffer

 

[PocketKnifeJimmy]

Hattori is some nice stuff.
They are pretty limited on how much product they put out, and... they surely are not shy on their pricing.

Even so, definitely quality stuff.

 

[Man with no name]

As most Cold Steel fans know, Ichiro Hattori made the San Mai III Tantos from circa1993 to 2015/2016. After which CS went to Taiwan manufacture.
I recently learned that Mr Hattori is planning to introduce his own line of Tantos. Don't have much details, only photos of shark/ray skin
being applied to the handle. But the components I see seem to ring a familiar bell. Shark skin on the Tsuka (handle) and the slot in tje pommel
indicate that it will be wrapped with Tsuka-Ito, as the old Imperial Tanto was. We'll see what the final outcome turns out to be.

Cold Steel VG1 San Mai III 2007-2015.

Above: Vintage Imperial Tanto.
Below: From the Hattori factory Oct 2021:

How did you get this information?

 

[The Whip]

As most Cold Steel fans know, Ichiro Hattori made the San Mai III Tantos from circa1993 to 2015/2016. After which CS went to Taiwan manufacture.
I recently learned that Mr Hattori is planning to introduce his own line of Tantos. Don't have much details, only photos of shark/ray skin
being applied to the handle. But the components I see seem to ring a familiar bell. Shark skin on the Tsuka (handle) and the slot in tje pommel
indicate that it will be wrapped with Tsuka-Ito, as the old Imperial Tanto was. We'll see what the final outcome turns out to be.

Cold Steel VG1 San Mai III 2007-2015.

Above: Vintage Imperial Tanto.
Below: From the Hattori factory Oct 2021:

jlauffer

Amazing to see those photos, Ken! It's much-appreciated information. Just curious, are you certain that the tantos pictured are Mr. Hattori's new models and not a special run for Cold Steel? If so, it sure appears that he's building his knives with spare Cold Steel parts!

-Steve

 

[KenHash]

Amazing to see those photos, Ken! It's much-appreciated information. Just curious, are you certain that the tantos pictured are Mr. Hattori's new models and not a special run for Cold Steel? If so, it sure appears that he's building his knives with spare Cold Steel parts!

-Steve

To be totally honest, I am "assuming" they will be labeled under his own brand. The only wording from the factory was "..we are now making".
It didn't say specifically if for their own brand label or for an OEM contractor. But being that they are down to just 2 OEM contracts, and few if any companies can afford his prices, I tend to suspect the former.
While they are still making the San Mai III Trail Master, i find it hard to imagine that CS's new owners would have the ,hmm...initiative and vision...to look back at and revive the Imperial Tanto series of yesteryear, and the ..audacity to and ask Mr Hattori to go at it....with 4034 steel....(LOL)
Seriously though, I could be completely wrong and we might see some limited run out of CS, but we'll just have to wait and see.

As for the parts, this is something I looked into several years ago in comparing some parts that were interchangable between Cold Steel and Fallkniven models. The OEM contracts are for the finished products per contract specs and the components are entirely under the manufacturers control, as long as they are approved. That's why you will sometimes see the exact same component part on knives made even by different Seki factories.

 

[Benjamin Liu]

What about Imperial Tantos with Secure-Ex sheaths?

 

[The Whip]

To be totally honest, I am "assuming" they will be labeled under his own brand. The only wording from the factory was "..we are now making".
It didn't say specifically if for their own brand label or for an OEM contractor. But being that they are down to just 2 OEM contracts, and few if any companies can afford his prices, I tend to suspect the former.
While they are still making the San Mai III Trail Master, i find it hard to imagine that CS's new owners would have the ,hmm...initiative and vision...to look back at and revive the Imperial Tanto series of yesteryear, and the ..audacity to and ask Mr Hattori to go at it....with 4034 steel....(LOL)
Seriously though, I could be completely wrong and we might see some limited run out of CS, but we'll just have to wait and see.

As for the parts, this is something I looked into several years ago in comparing some parts that were interchangable between Cold Steel and Fallkniven models. The OEM contracts are for the finished products per contract specs and the components are entirely under the manufacturers control, as long as they are approved. That's why you will sometimes see the exact same component part on knives made even by different Seki factories.

I agree with your assessment. I don't believe for a second that there's anyone working at GSM who even knows what an Imperial Tanto is, let alone who is savvy enough to envision an Imperial Magnum Tanto! If those blades turn out to be Cold Steel products, then they were either already in the works or else they are the result of someone at GSM asking Lynn (or perhaps Ichiro Hattori) if he had any ideas about producing a special-edition model that might entice longtime fans while making some quick money for the company.

I will be very interested to see how this turns out. Please let us know if you learn more about the project's progress.


-Steve

P.S. - Regarding Fallkniven: I always thought it was amusing to see people who utterly dismissed Cold Steel's knives turning around and praising Fallkniven's as though they were some great, new discovery. It's the equivalent of saying, "KA-BAR's knives are junk, but I sure think Becker Knife & Tool makes a great knife!"

But hey, if someone wants to pay two or three times the price for a re-labeled knife coming out of the same factory using the same materials, who am I to judge?

 

[PocketKnifeJimmy]

With the Trail Master being the last Cold Steel San Mai knife being made by Hattori in Japan, I'm surprised that we haven't seen their prices skyrocket yet. They can still be had for a reasonable price, but if GSM discontinues them, a rush to scoop them up will very likely follow, which will quickly dry up inventories. Then, their secondary market prices will likely go up fast.

 

[KenHash]

P.S. - Regarding Fallkniven: I always thought it was amusing to see people who utterly dismissed Cold Steel's knives turning around and praising Fallkniven's as though they were some great, new discovery. It's the equivalent of saying, "KA-BAR's knives are junk, but I sure think Becker Knife & Tool makes a great knife!"

But hey, if someone wants to pay two or three times the price for a re-labeled knife coming out of the same factory using the same materials, who am I to judge?

Your point is bang on steve. But the example photos aren't. The Seki made SRKs (Aus8/VG1/VG1 Core Sanmai III) were all made by Kinryu Corporation, owned by the Suzuki family. Whereas the Fallkniven S1, A1, and every other fixed blade they sell are made by Hattori.
As I have owned both knives I can tell you that despite the very similar appearance, in hand they are quite different. The SM SRK is hollow ground wheras the FK is convex. The FK is finished to a higher level and running your finger over the spine it is smooth whereas the SRK leaves an edge.
More money is spent by FK to produce the S1/A1 than CS spent for the SRK, and it shows both in quality and price. Even
Kraton" and "Thermorun" feel slightly different. Not that either knife can do something the other can not, of course.

That said, when I first joined BF, everyone was SAL=GOOD, LYNN=BADDDD and they were hammering the products. They were not aware that G.Sakai made all of Cold Steel's Seki folders as well as Spyderco's.

 

[The Whip]

Your point is bang on steve. But the example photos aren't. The Seki made SRKs (Aus8/VG1/VG1 Core Sanmai III) were all made by Kinryu Corporation, owned by the Suzuki family. Whereas the Fallkniven S1, A1, and every other fixed blade they sell are made by Hattori.
As I have owned both knives I can tell you that despite the very similar appearance, in hand they are quite different. The SM SRK is hollow ground wheras the FK is convex. The FK is finished to a higher level and running your finger over the spine it is smooth whereas the SRK leaves an edge.
More money is spent by FK to produce the S1/A1 than CS spent for the SRK, and it shows both in quality and price. Even
Kraton" and "Thermorun" feel slightly different. Not that either knife can do something the other can not, of course.

That said, when I first joined BF, everyone was SAL=GOOD, LYNN=BADDDD and they were hammering the products. They were not aware that G.Sakai made all of Cold Steel's Seki folders as well as Spyderco's.

I stand corrected on my example, and I appreciate the clarification, Ken. I used the A1 for my point because the praise for it in the press always rankled me. It's such a clear-cut ripoff of the SRK that, frankly, I think Cold Steel should have pursued Fallkniven legally over it. And yet magazines that refused to even mention Cold Steel, let alone review its products or acknowledge its industry influence, printed glowing articles about a Fallkniven knife mirroring one that Cold Steel had been selling for over a decade (at a significantly lower price). I felt the same about the Thor and the Odin. Leather handles don't hide their Trail Master and Recon Scout influences.

I also agree about the Spyderco adulation on these pages. But I've given up on making those comparisons, as the discussions about Spyderco-versus-Cold Steel quickly devolve into emotional arguments (typically shifting rapidly from the knives onto the personalities of the company presidents). Who wants that? At least Spyderco innovates, keeps its designs unique (well, for the most part it does...),

and isn't afraid to experiment with trying to improve performance. I've respected Spyderco's position in the knife world from its outset, and I really like the Spydercos I own. Cold Steel just always held more appeal for me.

Ken, do you happen to know if Cold Steel's Japanese manufacturers performed blade tempering and heat treatment, or was that handled elsewhere and Kinryu, Hattori, and G. Sakai only constructed the knives? I've always wondered about that.


-Steve

 

[KenHash]

I stand corrected on my example, and I appreciate the clarification, Ken. I used the A1 for my point because the praise for it in the press always rankled me. It's such a clear-cut ripoff of the SRK that, frankly, I think Cold Steel should have pursued Fallkniven legally over it. And yet magazines that refused to even mention Cold Steel, let alone review its products or acknowledge its industry influence, printed glowing articles about a Fallkniven knife mirroring one that Cold Steel had been selling for over a decade (at a significantly lower price). I felt the same about the Thor and the Odin. Leather handles don't hide their Trail Master and Recon Scout influences.

I also agree about the Spyderco adulation on these pages. But I've given up on making those comparisons, as the discussions about Spyderco-versus-Cold Steel quickly devolve into emotional arguments (typically shifting rapidly from the knives onto the personalities of the company presidents). Who wants that? At least Spyderco innovates, keeps its designs unique (well, for the most part it does...),

and isn't afraid to experiment with trying to improve performance. I've respected Spyderco's position in the knife world from its outset, and I really like the Spydercos I own. Cold Steel just always held more appeal for me.

Ken, do you happen to know if Cold Steel's Japanese manufacturers performed blade tempering and heat treatment, or was that handled elsewhere and Kinryu, Hattori, and G. Sakai only constructed the knives? I've always wondered about that.


-Steve

Steve,
The thing about knives is that there are few if any designs that haven't been made by someone somewhere sometime before. Absolutely the A1 design is so close to the SRK that in a simple photo example they look the same. But I disagree that CS should have taken FK to Court over it, because having owned both I can cite considerable differences. I admit that those differences are perhaps noticable only to those familir with knives, and not the general public. But those differences add up to a fairly significant different price point. In other words, CS would have had difficulty in proving that they lost SRK sales due to FK selling the A1.

Similarity in design, even if nearly identical to me isn't much of an issue. For example, the Randall,, Blackjack, Cold Steel R-1. To me, the real issue is the literal theft of designs and outright counterfeiting carried out by some factories in Yanngjiang China. A country whose governmemt won't respect IP as other countries do.

As for your last question, as far as I am aware all the Seki factories did/do their own tempering, HT.
I say "did" because as you may be aware, Kinryu closed their factory and got completely out of knife manufacturing.
They did alot of OEM work for Cold Steel, the Seki made SRKs, Recon Tantos, the Sanmai III Master Hunter, Laredo and Natchez.
Ken

 

[Cobalt]

P.S. - Regarding Fallkniven: I always thought it was amusing to see people who utterly dismissed Cold Steel's knives turning around and praising Fallkniven's as though they were some great, new discovery. It's the equivalent of saying, "KA-BAR's knives are junk, but I sure think Becker Knife & Tool makes a great knife!"

But hey, if someone wants to pay two or three times the price for a re-labeled knife coming out of the same factory using the same materials, who am I to judge?

Well, I think you missed the point of why some people do what you say. Maybe it's the fact that the vast majority of knives produced by CS are not made in Japan and do not come close to falkniven. .

But lets talk about the percentage that are made in japan. Lets take the San Mai Trailmaster, which currently runs an average price of around $280. The Falkniven Tor runs around $550. Nearly Double the price. Now take your TM and send it to someone who has the skill to turn it into a leather stacked handle. Add about $200 to the TM. That brings the price to $480. That doesn't include the shipping back and forth that you will pay to have someone do this. Another 40 bucks. The reality is the price difference is acceptable to me to get a leather stacked handle from the factory.

Next example. I just paid $160 for a new A1 from a retailer. You might find an SRK in San Mai for $100 at best. Believe it or not Falkniven handles are much more durable than CS Kraton. I will pay the extra. Luckily, I am able to own both. But if I was forced to choose one, it would be the Falkniven.

 

[The Zieg]

Steve,
The thing about knives is that there are few if any designs that haven't been made by someone somewhere sometime before. Absolutely the A1 design is so close to the SRK that in a simple photo example they look the same. But I disagree that CS should have taken FK to Court over it, because having owned both I can cite considerable differences. I admit that those differences are perhaps noticable only to those familir with knives, and not the general public. But those differences add up to a fairly significant different price point. In other words, CS would have had difficulty in proving that they lost SRK sales due to FK selling the A1.

Similarity in design, even if nearly identical to me isn't much of an issue. For example, the Randall,, Blackjack, Cold Steel R-1. To me, the real issue is the literal theft of designs and outright counterfeiting carried out by some factories in Yanngjiang China. A country whose governmemt won't respect IP as other countries do.

As for your last question, as far as I am aware all the Seki factories did/do their own tempering, HT.
I say "did" because as you may be aware, Kinryu closed their factory and got completely out of knife manufacturing.
They did alot of OEM work for Cold Steel, the Seki made SRKs, Recon Tantos, the Sanmai III Master Hunter, Laredo and Natchez.
Ken

Can we not also agree that CS's design for the SRK owes a great deal to earlier designers and producers? The SRK was not a tremendous innovation, after all.

 

[The Whip]

Steve,
The thing about knives is that there are few if any designs that haven't been made by someone somewhere sometime before. Absolutely the A1 design is so close to the SRK that in a simple photo example they look the same. But I disagree that CS should have taken FK to Court over it, because having owned both I can cite considerable differences. I admit that those differences are perhaps noticable only to those familir with knives, and not the general public. But those differences add up to a fairly significant different price point. In other words, CS would have had difficulty in proving that they lost SRK sales due to FK selling the A1.

Similarity in design, even if nearly identical to me isn't much of an issue. For example, the Randall,, Blackjack, Cold Steel R-1. To me, the real issue is the literal theft of designs and outright counterfeiting carried out by some factories in Yanngjiang China. A country whose governmemt won't respect IP as other countries do.

Well, I think you missed the point of why some people do what you say. Maybe it's the fact that the vast majority of knives produced by CS are not made in Japan and do not come close to falkniven. .

But lets talk about the percentage that are made in japan. Lets take the San Mai Trailmaster, which currently runs an average price of around $280. The Falkniven Tor runs around $550. Nearly Double the price. Now take your TM and send it to someone who has the skill to turn it into a leather stacked handle. Add about $200 to the TM. That brings the price to $480. That doesn't include the shipping back and forth that you will pay to have someone do this. Another 40 bucks. The reality is the price difference is acceptable to me to get a leather stacked handle from the factory.

Next example. I just paid $160 for a new A1 from a retailer. You might find an SRK in San Mai for $100 at best. Believe it or not Falkniven handles are much more durable than CS Kraton. I will pay the extra. Luckily, I am able to own both. But if I was forced to choose one, it would be the Falkniven.

I don't want to belabor the point too much, and I apologize for taking this otherwise informative thread down a rabbit hole (Ken's remark about interchangeable Cold Steel and Fallkniven knife parts rekindled an old fire), but I want to clarify my position. You gentlemen both are focusing on cost, materials, and even performance comparisons between the knives. I'm talking mainly about design parameters, aesthetics, and originality.

To my eye, Fallkniven barely bothered to modify the design drawings of Cold Steel's SRK, Trail Master, and Recon Scout when it "invented" its A1, Thor, and Odin models, respectively. For about a decade before those Fallkniven knives existed, Cold Steel's knives were in the hands of people using them, and using them hard. I found the reviews lauding the Fallknivens as though they were something new and original to be laughable.

Now we have this innovative new bargain from Fallkniven. At least they changed the Trail Master handle shape...a little.

Can we not also agree that CS's design for the SRK owes a great deal to earlier designers and producers? The SRK was not a tremendous innovation, after all.

Not a tremendous innovation? Maybe you could make that argument in general terms. But which knives were constructed and performed like this one in 1990 when it was released?

As for your last question, as far as I am aware all the Seki factories did/do their own tempering, HT.
I say "did" because as you may be aware, Kinryu closed their factory and got completely out of knife manufacturing.
They did alot of OEM work for Cold Steel, the Seki made SRKs, Recon Tantos, the Sanmai III Master Hunter, Laredo and Natchez.
Ken

That's interesting to know about the blade treatments. The reason I asked is because whichever manufacturers treated the blades would then have Cold Steel's proprietary tempering and heat treatment formulations and could use them on knives made for other companies--one of many reasons to make your own knives in your own factory, a path that Cold Steel, unfortunately, never chose. But that's yet another topic for a different thread.

I wasn't aware that Kinryu had gotten out of knife making. Thanks much for the information, Ken.


-Steve

 

[Cobalt]

My understanding was that the Trailmaster was a Hattori design, which is why, other companies have had the same design, including Rigid. Not sure about the SRK though.

 

[The Whip]

My understanding was that the Trailmaster was a Hattori design, which is why, other companies have had the same design, including Rigid. Not sure about the SRK though.

From the Trail Master history thread:

History of Cold Steel Trail Masters (and Recon Scout)

With the demise of the Cold Steel Forums, I am attempting to recreate the History threads that I had done over there. Hopefully this can be made a sticky. History of Cold Steel Trail Masters (and Recon Scout) This will focus on the older Trail Masters made in USA and Japan, rather than the...

www.bladeforums.com

Look at posts #15 and #16.


-Steve

 

[KenHash]

I have had two SRKs in my lifetime, the first Carbon V one bought in 1990 (I think it was available in late 1989) through a SMKW catalog. The photo posted above looks exactly like what I had including the cordura sheath with the holding strap. And later the San Mai III VG1 core made by Kinryu.
I happen to think the SRK is one of the best knives around for it's type. But, I don't consider the 1990 introduced SRK to be "innovative" in design. There were already other combat knives that used similar blade profiles before 1990. What I do consider innovative is the use of the synthentic Kraton handle/guard combination. In my digging into Seki knife history, I reached the conclusion that Kinryu was the first to produce a synthetic handle, for Phil Hoffman's Condor line. Almost all Seki factories followed very soon thereafter.

 

[The Whip]

I have had two SRKs in my lifetime, the first Carbon V one bought in 1990 (I think it was available in late 1989) through a SMKW catalog. The photo posted above looks exactly like what I had including the cordura sheath with the holding strap. And later the San Mai III VG1 core made by Kinryu.

Funny that you should mention believing that the SRK was available in 1989, as I'm fairly certain that I ordered my first SRK in late 1989 from Cutlery Shoppe. I can't verify that at the moment, however, and John's history thread mentions a 1990 flyer in his possession announcing the release, so that's the year I went with. Perhaps some Cold Steel retailers received the knives to sell prior to general distribution.

I happen to think the SRK is one of the best knives around for it's type. But, I don't consider the 1990 introduced SRK to be "innovative" in design. There were already other combat knives that used similar blade profiles before 1990. What I do consider innovative is the use of the synthentic Kraton handle/guard combination. In my digging into Seki knife history, I reached the conclusion that Kinryu was the first to produce a synthetic handle, for Phil Hoffman's Condor line. Almost all Seki factories followed very soon thereafter.

I'm assuming that you're referring to one-piece, molded-on, synthetic polymer handles. (For the record, I'm not claiming that Cold Steel was the first to do that with the SRK.) Do you mean these Condor models?

According to the patent information, Hoffman applied for the patent in 1984 and was granted it in 1986. But he was only patenting the broad, integrally molded thumb ramp.

I don't know if they were first, but to my recollection the first company with the one-piece, molded-on synthetic handles was Buck (perhaps it was Condor Sport Knives; I couldn't find a true patent for it in my research). I believe these debuted in 1986, as the green-handled model appears to be dated that way and I remember them from that time frame. The pictured black-handled 620 is dated 1988.

But none of that changes the fact that the SRK was a ground-breaking knife, in use now for more than thirty years. This one is my first, and she holds a special place in my heart.

-Steve

 

[KenHash]

Steve,
Yes I am refering to the Condor line that Phil Hoffman had made at Kinryu. I hacve been told that those were the first synthetic handled knives, coupled withsynthitic sheaths, made in the Seki factories. Of course patent dates do not necessaruly mean they were not being made prior, just when the patent was registered. The Condor line as you probably know subsequently failed business wise and the Kinryu factory was left with lots of parts from the project. They were looking for a solution when a former member of Pacific Cutlery named Mike Stewart offered to buy up all the remaining tooling/parts, and sign a contract for a new line called "Blackjack". As Kinryu only made fixed blades, the folders were contracted with Seizo Imai. That only lasted some 4 years, but Kinryu carried on after that with main contracts from SOG and Cold Steel.

I owned that OD colored handle Buck 616 and a Buck Lite folder (which I still have). Can't remember now when I bought it, but it was roughly the same time I bought the Buck 184, and later the skeletonized 185 which I used as my Dive knife.

Glad to hear that you got your SRK in late 1989, because I was certain I got mine in 1989 as well. It stuck in my head cause I became a father that year. But Jon pointed out that the SRK only shows up in the1990 catalog, so I wasn't sure. My black coating is pretty much gone.
Ken

 

[jlauffer]

Interesting that you both got your SRKs in 1989. Maybe they released it (and possibly others) earlier, but just compiled them into the New for 1990 flyer to keep them all together.