Sometimes you just get screwed

[cerulean]

Check out this case www.wisbar.org/WisCtApp/95-1398.html . Isn't it charming?

To summarize:

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">City of Milwaukee police conducted a traffic stop of a car driven and owned by Hampton. The police found a folding lock-blade knife with a three-and-three-quarter-inch blade in the car's glove compartment. The glove compartment door was closed, but within Hampton's reach. Hampton told police that it was his knife and that he used it to cut boxes at work. Police found other tools in the car's trunk. The traffic stop occurred at 3:00 p.m., and Hampton stated that he had last worked at 6:00 a.m. on the day of the stop. Police cited Hampton for carrying a concealed weapon under 105-34 of the Milwaukee Code of Ordinances.</font>

Wow, that sucks. The guy has a small pocketknife for work in the glove compartment of his car and he gets busted for carrying a concealed weapon. Amazing.

What's even more amazing is that they charged him under a local law, rather than a state law. And what's still more amazing is that the case was actually prosectuted and the guy was convicted! He appealed (which is the case linked above), but the judgement against him was confirmed.

The Milwaukee Code of Ordinances prohibits concealed carry of blades over 3", unless the defendant can "rebut state's evidence" that the knife is a weapon. (At least, that's my reading of the judgement in the appeal.) What a bummer.

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Cerulean

"We cut things to create things" - J.K.M.

 

[shootist16]

Actually it is OK for the police to search anywhere that you can reach within the passenger compartment of the car. If the glovebox was locked he would have a better chance of suppressing the evidence.

I have charged several people with drug possession for the same thing.

I'll admit that charging him for the knife was chicken$hit, but I am biased towards knives.

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Dennis Bible

 

[Kyui Su Kim]

So that would mean that if I was in my car and I happened to have my Balisong in my belt sheath, then I could be arrested.

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Things may never get better, but they can always get worse.

 

[shootist16]

People don't really have the same rights to privacy in a car as they do their home. The courts have ruled time and time again in favor of limited warrantless searches of the passenger compartment. The general idea is that since vehicles are mobile it really isn't very often plausible to secure a search warrant. If balisongs are illegal in your state then you could certainly be charged for having it in your car, especially on your person.

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Dennis Bible

 

[cerulean]

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Actually it is OK for the police to search anywhere that you can reach within the passenger compartment of the car.</font>

Hmm... That's really interesting. I didn't know that. It would make sense though. I guess stopping someone in a car is no different than doing a "Terry" stop of someone walking down the street and, in that case, frisking them for weapons is perfectly legal.

Some states do allow you to have concealed weapons in your car. My state does, but I don't know about Wisconsin. Local laws may forbid it though, and they're the ones that take precedence.

There was an interesting law that just passed here in CO that allows you to carry a concealed weapon in your car even if you pass through a jurisdiction that doesn't allow it. What was happening was that hunters would drive through Denver on their way to the mountains and get busted for carrying concealed guns in their car. (The Denver Code of Ordinances doesn't allow concealed carry in a car) Now though, as long as you don't live in Denver, you can drive through with weapons in your car and it doesn't matter how many stops you make on your way through.

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Cerulean

"We cut things to create things" - J.K.M.

[This message has been edited by cerulean (edited 01-07-2001).]

 

[shootist16]

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by cerulean:
I guess stopping someone in a car is no different than doing a "Terry" stop of someone walking down the street and, in that case, frisking them for weapons is perfectly legal.

</font>

Thats exactly it. Basically you are doing a "Terry" frisk of the car.

Of course you can also search a car incident to arrest, with probable cause (such as a K-9 alert), an inventory search if you are towing the car, and with consent.



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Dennis Bible

 

[Rick1955]

I started a topic in the Knife Laws category about knife blade length.

Apparently the original subject of this string, was arrested due to the length of the knife in his glove box. Could you address the issue of how blade length is measured in TN? Normally, the legality of knives is based on either the length of the blade, or the type of knife. The type of knife is generally obvious, but the way that a knife blade is measured is not.

Thanks.

 

[shootist16]

I measure the blade by the cuuting edge. I am probably more liberal than others in this regard. Some officers may measure the blade by the maximum penetration depth. Their really is no sanctioned way that I have found so far.

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Dennis Bible

 

[Rick1955]

Dennis,

You say you measure a knife blade by the cutting edge. How? In a straight line from where the cutting edge starts back by the kick/tang to the tip of the point? Or along the cutting edge itself?

I can only recall reading two laws (I think one was MN) that actually specified how a knife blade is to be measure to determine the legality of it's blade length. The lack of how blades are to be measured in the various laws is very curious and concerning to me. Many laws use blade length as one way to determine the legality of the blade yet almost none say how to measure the blade. Please say "Big deal" but the case sided in this string is a good example of why it is indeed a big deal.

I saw one LEO open a pocketknife blade, hold the knife with the thumb and forefinger of one hand at the bolster nearest the blade and then rotated the whole knife using his hold a a pivot. When the blade hit the webb between his thumb and forefinger, he declared the knife illegal, folded it, put it in his pocket and told the teen he took it from that he was lucky he didn't arrest him. Cop got the knife, kid got lucky according to the cop. The knife was legal in that jurisdiction and the teen could legally carry it. It would have taken a VERY short blade to clear the web in his hand.

What about housewives who buy kitchen knives (big ones) and have them in a bag on the seat of their car on the way home?

There was the story about the schoolgirl who was expelled for bringing a knife to school - it was an ordinary dull table knife in her lunch bag that she used to spread things on her bread - she was told a knife is a knife.

Knives aren't like guns and shouldn't be treated like them.

Do you all get any formal training on identifying a determining the legality of knives or do you just use the published laws as a guide? Do you use rulers to measure the blade or what?

I actually carry an extract of the state law dealing with knives with me as I have found that many people, including LEOs don't know what the law says. In TX, maximum blade length is 5 1/2 inches (the longest in the US I believe) but many people think that there is no way a blade that long is legal to carry. Course I don't usually carry a blade that long but I do sometimes when fishing, etc.

Thanks

 

[Reload]

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">
In TX, maximum blade length is 5 1/2 inches (the longest in the US I believe) but many people think that there is no way a blade that long is legal to carry. Course I don't usually carry a blade that long but I do sometimes when fishing, etc.

Generally speaking, carrying a 5½ inch or less blade in Texas is legal, EXCEPT in Federal facilities. US Code Title 18USC Sec. 930 makes it a Felony to possess any knife that is not less than 2½ inches in blade length into any federal facility. This includes “facilities” such as: VA Hospitals, IRS & Social Security offices, Federal prisons, Federal courts and US Post Offices. Needless to say, don’t send knives by US mail.
Yes, Texas cops enjoy using the “palm of the hand” technique to determine the legality of a knife. Of course this is bogus and they know it. Texas Penal Code Sec. 46.01 clearly states that an illegal knife has to have a blade over 5½ inches…the law does not say “a blade exceeding the width of a police officer’s palm”. Also, Texas cops would like you to think that a knife blade greater than 5½ inches that they find in the trunk of your car is illegal. That’s bogus too. The knife has to be “on or about your person”, (TEX PC 46.02). However, anything discovered in a glove compartment would likely be ruled “permissible evidence” by a court. These laws are directed more or less toward civilians. Military and LE are usually allowed to play by different rules.


[/B]</font>

 

[shootist16]

I always measure in a straight line from where the cutting edge starts back by the kick/tang to the tip of the point.

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Dennis Bible

 

[dsvirsky]

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Reload:
US Code Title 18USC Sec. 930 makes it a Felony to possess any knife that is not less than 2½ inches in blade length into any federal facility. </font>

Actually, you have misinterpreted the statute. The statute makes it a crime to knowingly (an important distinction) carry a dangerous weapon in a federal facility, and then specifically excludes pocketknives with blades less than 2 1/2 inches in length from the definition of dangerous weapon. However, the statute also allows for possession of dangerous weapons "incident to hunting or other lawful purposes."

In United States v. Hardy, the US Court for the 7th Circuit Court noted that: "A violation of 18 U.S.C. sec. 930(b), . . . requires the government to prove that a defendant knowingly possessed a dangerous weapon in a federal facility and that he did so with the intent to use the weapon in the commission of a crime."

If you aren't intending to commit a crime, it's not against the law to possess a knife in a federal facility. Which doesn't mean that they can't make you check it at the door.

Federal courthouses are another matter.

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Dave

Let no one ever from henceforth say one word in any way countenancing war. It is dangerous even to speak of how here and there the individual may gain some hardship of soul by it. For war is hell, and those who institute it are criminals. Siegfried Loraine Sassoon

[This message has been edited by dsvirsky (edited 01-14-2001).]

 

[Whirlwind]

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Reload:

In TX, maximum blade length is 5 1/2 inches (the longest in the US I believe) but many people think that there is no way a blade that long is legal to carry. </font>

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think there are limits in California, Minnesota, Wisconson, or Michigan.

~Whirlwind!

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[If any of my messages have been edited by anyone but me, consider it void.]

 

[Moving Target]

That's (almost) funny. I have a friend who had nearly that exact same situation happen to him in Florida. His car was searched for really just a routine stop and he ended up getting busted for having a knife 'concealed' in the little console between the seats of his car. The knife was confiscated and he was slapped with a concealed weapons charge. So what should he do? Leave the knife on the front seat in plain view? Now isn't that perfectly legal by ANY definition as long as the knife isn't of the 'illegal' variety? Ok, so now he's legal - but he's even in deeper trouble the next time he's pulled over and the (overbearing/trigger-happy/egomaniac/etc.) cop spots the 'weapon' within easy reach? You just can't win.


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It is Us against Them. Whoever they are.

 

[Lance Gothic]

Cerulean,
You didn't state the PC, (probable cause), for the stop. Much depends upon the correct sequence of events to occur. I understand where Shootist is coming from having been a LEO both civilian & military.
Seems the best answer may be to carry a tackle box with a pole! Dive gear bag?
Regards,
Lance Gothic
Shibumi

 

[sarge]

Kyui Su Kim,
Only if you are in Milwaukee. Indiana does not have a CCW law, it was repealed many, many years ago.

Whirlwind,
To my knowledge, Indiana does not have a statute for limiting the length of a knife. Autos, any spring loaded knife, chinese throwing stars are expressly prohibited. If you threaten or gesture with a knife of any length in a threatening manner, then you can be arrested.

I read the case, do not like the outcome, but it looks perfectly legal. The LEO had PC and enforced an existing city ordinance. I think that the ordinance is bogus but his only avenue is show the unconstitutionality of the ordinance. I wonder how much effort the Legal Aid attorney put into the case and since we do not know any of the other circumstances leading up to the arrest it is tough to make a judgement. I hope that there was more to this arrest than just a poor innocent motorist stopped for a traffic violation. Was or is this guy a known violent offender, a possible drug dealer did he give the arresting officer any grief, all of these things may have played into the arrest decision.

Just my 2 cents worth,

sarge




[This message has been edited by sarge (edited 01-20-2001).]

 

[cerulean]

Well, my knowledge of this case is only what you see in the published opinion. I assume that the officer had probable cause to make the stop or the defense would have brought that up. You certainly can't fault the LEO in this case. He was just enforcing the law and what he did was perfectly legal. However, just because it's legal doesn't mean that it's right.

In this case, the defendant did nothing wrong, yet he was punished by the law. - Sometimes you just get screwed. {shrug}

It's weird when people make rants like, "Once they outlaw guns, knives are next!" and "Watch out guys! Knife laws in America are soon going to be as restrictive as laws in Australia and the UK!". You hear that kind of stuff all the time, but knife laws in America are already horribly bad. A guy gets busted for carrying a folding work knife in the glove compartment of his car. That's ridiculous.

Some cites have knife laws that are even more absurd. For instance: In Denver it is illegal to use a knife with a blade over 3.5 inches long. Not just conceal or carry, but use! It would be perfectly legal for the police to storm a Denver restaurant and arrest all of the patrons there for using weapons to eat their food. Legal? Yes. Right? No.

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Cerulean

"We cut things to create things" - J.K.M.

[This message has been edited by cerulean (edited 01-20-2001).]