Sons first forging, and Noob questions

Joined
Mar 13, 2007
Messages
13
Gents,

My son (9) has been badgering me for WEEKS that he wants to forge a knife. $7 worth of quickcrete, some scrap iron, and my little bronze foundry and he was doing this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0kw_GTcXBKU

Note that this is the first time either of us has done anything that even resembles non-lathe or non-casting related "metal work". Soooo....what next?

Specifically, are there any books out there that talk about FORGING knives? I've looked through knifemaking at the library, and the entire section can be summed up as "The 37 different types of Grinders and 10000 ways to use them". We have a bench grinder, which my son is afraid of and which I don't want him using (he's nine). We also have a wet grinder (the jet version of the Tormek). That thing is so fast he'll be in college before this project is done.

I know he'll have to grind some, but I want him basically to be able to forge to the last possible point, then finish up on the bench stones (we have DMT black to Shapton cream). But I don't know how to proceed from this point. Where we left off was the blade isn't quite flat (which he'll fix by pounding), and did some grinding for him on the bench grinder to form a Bowie-esque shape blade profile.

Last question: what is the thinnest that you can hone the blade to while it's soft without risking burning up the edge or otherwise ruining it during hardening/tempering?
 
Have you seen this ?

The Standard Reply to Newbies v6

The answer to a 13 year old student is different than to a 40 year old engineer, and you may have a helpful neighbour. We can often recommend a local supplier, but that depends on where you are.
Fill out your profile with your location (Country and State at least), age, education, employment.

Look at the stickies at the top, many are expired, but not all.

The basic process in the simplest terms
http://www.hossom.com/jonesy/

This is a very detailed set of instructions by Stacy Apalt.
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=694673


Books

A list of books and videos on the KnifeDogs Forum
http://www.knifedogs.com/showthread.php?t=5285

BladeForums - E-books or book previews
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=603203

I like:
David Boye-Step by Step Knifemaking
Tim McCreight-Custom Knifemaking: 10 Projects from a Master Craftsman
These are clear and well organized, widely available and inexpensive too.

Knife Design:
On the google books thread, you can find
LLoyd Harding drawings
and
the Loveless book with large variety of proven classic styles.

Forging Books:
Lorelei Sims-The Backyard Blacksmith
A good modern book with great photos for forging in general - no knifemaking.

Jim Hrisoulas- has 3 books on forging knives, Check for the cheaper paperback editions.
The Complete Bladesmith: Forging Your Way To Perfection
The Pattern-Welded Blade: Artistry In Iron
The Master Bladesmith: Advanced Studies In Steel


The $50 knife shop
It is popular, but it confused me for a long time.
Forging is NOT necessary, you can just file and grind everything away to create a knife (stock removal)

The goop quench is total Bull, commercially made quench oils are cheap and easily available. Even a grocery store canola oil works much better.

Junkyard steels require the skills of an experienced smith to identify the steel and heat treat it properly.
You can buy proper steel like 1084 very cheaply.
(Mentioned in the new edition)

I like cable damascus, but that is an advanced project for an experienced smith and has no place in a beginners book.

The home built grinders are the best thing, but there is now a huge amount of info on home built 2x72 belt grinders on the web.
The revised edition of this book should have included this.


Videos

Heat Treating Basics Video-downloadable
http://www.archive.org/download/gov.ntis.ava08799vnb1/ava08799vnb1_512kb.mp4

Many specific how to knifemaking videos are available.
Some are better than others, but all better than nothing.

The best overall Knifemaking video I have seen is
“Steve Johnson-Making a Sub-Hilt Fighter”

The best video on Leather Sheath making I have seen is
“Custom Knife Sheaths -Chuck Burrows - Wild Rose”

You can see some titles and their reviews at this rental company,
Rental wait times are measured in months.
You can reviews and buy some of the good ones much faster than renting.
http://smartflix.com/store/category/9/Knifemaking

Green Pete's Free Video
Making a Mora style bushcraft knife with simple stock removal using hand tools and a neo tribal / unplugged heat treat.
"Green Pete" posted it for free distribution.
It is available here for those who can use torrent files. + plus more too.

http://thepiratebay.org/torrent/4995247/Greenpete_s__Knifemaking_Basics_-_Make_a_Mora_Bushcraft_Knife
You can also find it on YouTube broken into 4 parts.


Steel
The “welding steel” at Home Depot/Lowes… is useless for knives.
If you want to ship out for heat treating, you can use ATS34 or 440C, plus many others.

If you want to heat treat yourself, find some 1070, 1080, 1084,
1084 FG sold by Aldo Bruno is formulated just for knifemaking.

You can find lists of suppliers here
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=699736

Aldo’s website inventory is unreliable, call instead.
http://njsteelbaron.com/


Heat Treating
You do not have to buy a lot of equipment to start with.
You can send out for heat treating, 10 or 15 $ per blade
http://www.buckknives.com/resources/pdf/Paul_Bos_Brochure.pdf
This is a PDF brochure which gives good general info

http://www.petersheattreat.com/
http://www.texasknife.com/vcom/about_us.php
http://www.knifemaker.ca/(Canadian)
and others


Grinder / Tools

Hand Tools
You can do it all by hand with files and abrasive paper.
The Green Pete video does it this way.

Photo of a nice bevel filing jig .
http://www.flemingknives.com/imagesPrime/FileStation/KPicB007.jpg

Entry Level Grinders
Many makers start with the Sears Craftsman 2x42 belt grinder.

DIY 2 x 72” belt grinders

KMG Clone
Free Plans
http://www.dfoggknives.com/PDF/GrinderPlans.pdf

NWG No Weld Grinder
http://www.usaknifemaker.com/plans-for-the-no-weld-grinder-sander-nearly-50-pages-p-723.html

EERF Grinder (EERF =“Free” backwards)
Free plans
http://wilmontgrinders.com/EERFGrinder.aspx
http://blindhogg.com/blueprints.html

Buy the kit
http://polarbearforge.com/grinder_kit.html
 
Last edited:
Especially with young kids, people will comment on safety.

I'm not normally one of those, since if you are here getting more info, or there supervising I assume you are watching out for him..

and if he burns himself he will be more careful next time.

I watched your video and see you have him all rigged out with safety gear, good for you.

One thing to add either :

- get a good pair of tongs that fit the material and have long reins (handles)
maybe even a ring lock on the handles.

or

- just use a long piece of material so that he can hold onto the still cool end.
I believe this is simpler and gives me better hold than tongs
better balance too.

Forging loses its fun real fast if you drop hot steel on your toes or try to catch it when it drops.
 
Last edited:
12345678910: that was an awesome boatload of links you provided! Thanks!

I think I'll cast him some copper "clankers" to wear over his boots. I know they make steel toe boots for kids, but he's about to hit that stage where he'll outgrow a pair shoes every 6 months.

I think I'll forge up a pair tongs for him. I "blacksmithed" (and I use that term loosely) a pair of lifting tongs for the foundry. The setup in the video is about 1000 better than that project, which used a propane torch and the sidewalk.

One of your links showed a pair of pliers inserted into pipe. I'm REALLY liking that idea.
 
Gents, you very kindly offered lots of advice and some really interesting links when I posted earlier about my son's first forging. I surfed, I visited, I got a copy of Hrisoulas (sp?) book, which is on the shelf in its wrap waiting for my sons birthday next month.

Then it was time to go to work. I went into my woodworking shop, stuck my arm shoulder deep into the "pile of tools I have outgrown since my skills have improved" and from deep in the bottom out comes the Veritas MKII sharpening station.

Think of it as disk sander with the disk turned horizontally. I pulled this out because I quickly realized that the blade of his creation is not flat. I know from past ww'ing projects that if the piece isn't flat, then any profile you try to cut/sand/handplane/file into it is just not going to work. Sooo.....just to make sure the steel was soft I turned the oven up to 500, put the work in there, let it soak for a coupla hours, then turned off the oven and left it overnight.

Then I got to grinding. And I am grinding still, and still Side A is not flat and Side B is laughing at me saying "wait until you get to me!". I'm bright enough (barely) to understand that bladesmiths ancient and modern had this same problem, and that they had some different way to deal with it besides what I'm doing.

Care to share? :D
 
12345678910: I'm not entirely sure what I'm seeing at the fleming site. Is that a file the angle gauge is resting on, than he can reciprocate through that block?
 
12345678910: I'm not entirely sure what I'm seeing at the fleming site. Is that a file the angle gauge is resting on, than he can reciprocate through that block?

Yes

It's a jig that allows him to file the flat bevel angles of the blade.

It holds the angle of the file stable and the rod slides through that block.
it can swivel up/down and left/right on the pivots
It's really similar to the Lansky Sharpener, only much more sturdy and enlarged to hold a file.


the problems you are having now...

1.
right from the start, try to finish forge very close to final shape and size.
10 minutes of forging saves hours of grinding...
When you think you are done, eyeball it for straightness, dings and such, then plan what you need to do.

Get an old wooden baseball bat or hardwood mallet for straightening without leaving marks.
(that wood-shop is becoming more useful now too)

Others will file on red hot steel, it works very easily then, but you need a good hold down for that and it won't last long...

2.
You did temper the blade at 500F, but you didn't anneal it.
It is a little softer than I like on a blade, but still pretty hard.


The steel you are using will have a specific normalizing and annealing procedure, search and read that.
(basically heat to red + and cool very slowly like in vermiculite or ashes)

Watch this again, Try 1x per day every day for a week.-seriously
Heat Treating Basics Video-downloadable
http://ia311216.us.archive.org/3/items/gov.ntis.ava08799vnb1/ava08799vnb1_512kb.mp4



3.
Learn to drawfile
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dec78RQsokw

[youtube]Dec78RQsokw[/youtube]
 
Last edited:
Welcome,
Going to a local "hammer in" can be a great source of information.
Also Glad to see that your sons wearing safety gear:thumbup:
 
I just wanted to say that I think it's awesome you are supporting your son like this in his new endeavor!!! :thumbup: :cool: :)

He's about the same age that I was, when I got started. Also, another kudos to you for gearing him up for safety... but I'd get him some good safety glasses. I think the old Biology 101 goggles are so hard to see out of that they can actually be more of a problem than help. But again... you are miles ahead of most folks by getting those on him to begin with! :)

Normally I'd recommend a person do some stock removal blades first, to get some experience with filing, sanding, heat-treating--- and starting with a nice, flat surface! ;) Then moving on to forging. And trust me, I am a HUGE proponent of the art of forging. It runs deep in my blood! But it's jumping in the deep end of the pool. It takes a whole new set of skills and tools to forge a blade (which you are obviously well on your way to having).


You two keep reading and keep doing--- It WILL pay off! :)
 
Excellent post thanks!!!


Have you seen this ?

The Standard Reply to Newbies v6

The answer to a 13 year old student is different than to a 40 year old engineer, and you may have a helpful neighbour. We can often recommend a local supplier, but that depends on where you are.
Fill out your profile with your location (Country and State at least), age, education, employment.

Look at the stickies at the top, many are expired, but not all.

The basic process in the simplest terms
http://www.hossom.com/jonesy/

This is a very detailed set of instructions by Stacy Apalt.
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=694673


Books

A list of books and videos on the KnifeDogs Forum
http://www.knifedogs.com/showthread.php?t=5285

BladeForums - E-books or book previews
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=603203

I like:
David Boye-Step by Step Knifemaking
Tim McCreight-Custom Knifemaking: 10 Projects from a Master Craftsman
These are clear and well organized, widely available and inexpensive too.

Knife Design:
On the google books thread, you can find
LLoyd Harding drawings
and
the Loveless book with large variety of proven classic styles.

Forging Books:
Lorelei Sims-The Backyard Blacksmith
A good modern book with great photos for forging in general - no knifemaking.

Jim Hrisoulas- has 3 books on forging knives, Check for the cheaper paperback editions.
The Complete Bladesmith: Forging Your Way To Perfection
The Pattern-Welded Blade: Artistry In Iron
The Master Bladesmith: Advanced Studies In Steel


The $50 knife shop
It is popular, but it confused me for a long time.
Forging is NOT necessary, you can just file and grind everything away to create a knife (stock removal)

The goop quench is total Bull, commercially made quench oils are cheap and easily available. Even a grocery store canola oil works much better.

Junkyard steels require the skills of an experienced smith to identify the steel and heat treat it properly.
You can buy proper steel like 1084 very cheaply.
(Mentioned in the new edition)

I like cable damascus, but that is an advanced project for an experienced smith and has no place in a beginners book.

The home built grinders are the best thing, but there is now a huge amount of info on home built 2x72 belt grinders on the web.
The revised edition of this book should have included this.


Videos

Heat Treating Basics Video-downloadable
http://www.archive.org/download/gov.ntis.ava08799vnb1/ava08799vnb1_512kb.mp4

Many specific how to knifemaking videos are available.
Some are better than others, but all better than nothing.

The best overall Knifemaking video I have seen is
“Steve Johnson-Making a Sub-Hilt Fighter”

The best video on Leather Sheath making I have seen is
“Custom Knife Sheaths -Chuck Burrows - Wild Rose”

You can see some titles and their reviews at this rental company,
Rental wait times are measured in months.
You can reviews and buy some of the good ones much faster than renting.
http://smartflix.com/store/category/9/Knifemaking

Green Pete's Free Video
Making a Mora style bushcraft knife with simple stock removal using hand tools and a neo tribal / unplugged heat treat.
"Green Pete" posted it for free distribution.
It is available here for those who can use torrent files. + plus more too.

http://thepiratebay.org/torrent/499...femaking_Basics_-_Make_a_Mora_Bushcraft_Knife
You can also find it on YouTube broken into 4 parts.


Steel
The “welding steel” at Home Depot/Lowes… is useless for knives.
If you want to ship out for heat treating, you can use ATS34 or 440C, plus many others.

If you want to heat treat yourself, find some 1070, 1080, 1084,
1084 FG sold by Aldo Bruno is formulated just for knifemaking.

You can find lists of suppliers here
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=699736

Aldo’s website inventory is unreliable, call instead.
http://njsteelbaron.com/


Heat Treating
You do not have to buy a lot of equipment to start with.
You can send out for heat treating, 10 or 15 $ per blade
http://www.buckknives.com/resources/pdf/Paul_Bos_Brochure.pdf
This is a PDF brochure which gives good general info

http://www.petersheattreat.com/
http://www.texasknife.com/vcom/about_us.php
http://www.knifemaker.ca/(Canadian)
and others


Grinder / Tools

Hand Tools
You can do it all by hand with files and abrasive paper.
The Green Pete video does it this way.

Photo of a nice bevel filing jig .
http://www.flemingknives.com/imagesPrime/FileStation/KPicB007.jpg

Entry Level Grinders
Many makers start with the Sears Craftsman 2x42 belt grinder.

DIY 2 x 72” belt grinders

KMG Clone
Free Plans
http://www.dfoggknives.com/PDF/GrinderPlans.pdf

NWG No Weld Grinder
http://www.usaknifemaker.com/plans-for-the-no-weld-grinder-sander-nearly-50-pages-p-723.html

EERF Grinder (EERF =“Free” backwards)
Free plans
http://wilmontgrinders.com/EERFGrinder.aspx
http://blindhogg.com/blueprints.html

Buy the kit
http://polarbearforge.com/grinder_kit.html
 
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